66 replies to this topic

[redlion]

Long live the consent of the governed!

إن شاء الله ، إخواني!

News Story Here. A brief excerpt follows:

Egypt has extended its curfew to all cities as anti-government demonstrators in Cairo besiege key buildings, including the foreign ministry and the state broadcaster.

The headquarters of the governing NDP party has been set ablaze.

President Hosni Mubarak, facing the biggest challenge to his authority of his 31 years in power, has ordered the army onto the streets of Cairo.

He is due to make a statement, his first since protests began on Tuesday.

Across the country, tens of thousands of protesters turned out after Friday prayers and clashed with police.

The curfew is now in effect, but live television pictures from Cairo continue to show large crowds on the streets.

BBC Arabic correspondent Khaled Ezzelarab, in Cairo, says despite the curfew, demonstrators are surrounding the building of Egyptian radio and television and trying to break into it.

The building is guarded by armed forces and the demonstrators are cheering for the army, while the latter is not getting into confrontations with the people, he says.

Sources
Wikipedia Summary
Yemenis follow suit
BBC Auto-Updated News Page

Discuss Africa's 31 year dictatorship, second only to Libya's Colonel Gadaffi on the continent. Or discuss democratic ideals. Or the means by which we obtain, maintain, and protect those ideals. Whatever you prefer. I'm just happy they're standing up for something

[Warriors]

Hrm...Not sure..at which I am more mad at., aside from Hosni Mubarak views on Israel-Palestinian conflict, of him being President with illegitimate elections or the US spouting so much bullshit about democracy that they fail to back up their actions abroad. The US Govt - "We support Hosni Mubarak as President, but also the right of free speech by the people." Complete BS, just like most former dictatorships with US secretly funding and helping out this needs to stop and the people have spoken. People should not fear the government, the government should fear its people.

These Egyptians have every right to protest and riot...Also with what is going on in Tunisia, its getting more and more crazy out there...


As for Qaddafi, he seems to be a bit more accepted by his people and his Pan-Africanism ideals are holding up and creating a better Africa..Its quite weird in this situation..It's true that he is a despot, but now its between his two sons..One who is seeking a democratic state and the other who is a bit more extreme than his father in dealing with dissidents.

[Frank274]

It's crazy that they turned off the internet in all of Egypt...

[Warriors]

It's crazy that they turned off the internet in all of Egypt...

Yea but will never happen in the US...Only happened since the Government controls all the providers..Its crazier than this affects laptops and cell phones too.

[Dreww]

Hrm...Not sure..at which I am more mad at., aside from Hosni Mubarak views on Israel-Palestinian conflict, of him being President with illegitimate elections or the US spouting so much bullshit about democracy that they fail to back up their actions abroad. The US Govt - "We support Hosni Mubarak as President, but also the right of free speech by the people." Complete BS, just like most former dictatorships with US secretly funding and helping out this needs to stop and the people have spoken. People should not fear the government, the government should fear its people.

These Egyptians have every right to protest and riot...Also with what is going on in Tunisia, its getting more and more crazy out there...


As for Qaddafi, he seems to be a bit more accepted by his people and his Pan-Africanism ideals are holding up and creating a better Africa..Its quite weird in this situation..It's true that he is a despot, but now its between his two sons..One who is seeking a democratic state and the other who is a bit more extreme than his father in dealing with dissidents.

Yemen is also following with these revolts. The people of Yemen want the US-backed leadership to step down.

[Seaner]

Isn't Mubarak the lesser of two evils? I can't imagine people in Egypt experiencing more freedoms if a theocratic leader were to be installed.

[WharfRat]

Yea but will never happen in the US...Only happened since the Government controls all the providers..Its crazier than this affects laptops and cell phones too.

Actually, Obama just pushed an executive order giving the FCC domain over the internet as a form they claim that it falls into their control over communications. He has also asked for a "kill switch" (my term because I forgot what the exact word was) on the internet... So it actually is very possible that the government could shut off the internet in the United States in the future if necessary.

As to the riots in Egypt, I am keeping up... I support the people of Egypt but am worried about who will take over if they do succeed.... (Look at the "democratically elected" Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.) Egypt is our strongest ally in the middle east (if you exclude Israel... but they are one of the few countries in support or at least who upholds the treaties and even has troops to protect the gaza troop on their side of the border) Factor in all the oil that's coming out of the Suez Canal and Egypt is actually a really big concern for the U.S.

So I am all about the people having power... but it's certainly a hard spot for the U.S. to be in if some radical is elected as the current leader is very friendly with us.

[Warriors]

Actually, Obama just pushed an executive order giving the FCC domain over the internet as a form they claim that it falls into their control over communications. He has also asked for a "kill switch" (my term because I forgot what the exact word was) on the internet... So it actually is very possible that the government could shut off the internet in the United States in the future if necessary.

As to the riots in Egypt, I am keeping up... I support the people of Egypt but am worried about who will take over if they do succeed.... (Look at the "democratically elected" Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.) Egypt is our strongest ally in the middle east (if you exclude Israel... but they are one of the few countries in support or at least who upholds the treaties and even has troops to protect the gaza troop on their side of the border) Factor in all the oil that's coming out of the Suez Canal and Egypt is actually a really big concern for the U.S.

So I am all about the people having power... but it's certainly a hard spot for the U.S. to be in if some radical is elected as the current leader is very friendly with us.

Didn't know that...but seeing as its Joe Lieberman authorizing the bill, that says alot..It's not the FCC chairman's job to seek consensus among the corporations that he was put into office to regulate. His duty is to protect Internet users..And if this goes through this will be bad. I can understand a cyber-attack and maybe only then should it have the power after asking Congress, but still this is going too far.

[redlion]

Isn't Mubarak the lesser of two evils? I can't imagine people in Egypt experiencing more freedoms if a theocratic leader were to be installed.

The lesser of two evils? For him to be the lesser evil, the greater evil has to already exist. As it is, he's the only evil, unless you count the son he was trying to install as President. You cannot pass judgement based on the assumption that a theocrat will be elected. Faith is not the only thing that rules people.

As to the riots in Egypt, I am keeping up... I support the people of Egypt but am worried about who will take over if they do succeed.... (Look at the "democratically elected" Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.) Egypt is our strongest ally in the middle east (if you exclude Israel... but they are one of the few countries in support or at least who upholds the treaties and even has troops to protect the gaza troop on their side of the border) Factor in all the oil that's coming out of the Suez Canal and Egypt is actually a really big concern for the U.S.

So I am all about the people having power... but it's certainly a hard spot for the U.S. to be in if some radical is elected as the current leader is very friendly with us.

You can't compare Egypt to Iran: both have presidents, but only one has Ayatollahs. They might both be corrupt, but they aren't the same...

I'm hoping they overthrow.

[Faval]

Hmm, based on what I've been reading, it's pretty inhumane what's going on there. Like the police beating the shit out of people and this one Minutes after internet goes down, police shoots protester.

I don't know if the protesters will get anywhere with this, Egypt has a well funded army unlike Tunisa.

[Waser Lave]

How do you like them apples?

[WharfRat]

The lesser of two evils? For him to be the lesser evil, the greater evil has to already exist. As it is, he's the only evil, unless you count the son he was trying to install as President. You cannot pass judgement based on the assumption that a theocrat will be elected. Faith is not the only thing that rules people.

You can't compare Egypt to Iran: one has Ayatollahs, one has presidents. They might both be corrupt, but they aren't the same...

I'm hoping they overthrow.

Well Patrick, I do agree with you... but I am also just now reading more heavily into the situation and from what I can gather, it looks like the "Muslim Brotherhood" has joined into the protests and is attempting to wedge their way into power. This organization led to the founding of both Hamas and Al Queda from what I can tell...

As for Iran, yes, they do have Ayatollahs, but they also have a president who is supposed to listen to the Ayatollah. If these theocratic organizations do manage to secure power or at least momentum within the people, we could see a leader emerge that is similar to the situation in Iran.

[Faval]

Well Patrick, I do agree with you... but I am also just now reading more heavily into the situation and from what I can gather, it looks like the "Muslim Brotherhood" has joined into the protests and is attempting to wedge their way into power. This organization led to the founding of both Hamas and Al Queda from what I can tell...

Yes it does look the Muslim Brotherhood is joining in today. It's likely they're put themselves in power after it's all done...but they aren't actually deemed a terrorist group by the US, just by Russia.

How do you like them apples?

Apparently...a few people report having dial up access in some parts...better than nothing when they're probably going to do some gruesome things later.

Edited by Faval, 28 January 2011 - 01:14 PM.

[WharfRat]

Hmm, based on what I've been reading, it's pretty inhumane what's going on there. Like the police beating the shit out of people and this one Minutes after internet goes down, police shoots protester.

I don't know if the protesters will get anywhere with this, Egypt has a well funded army unlike Tunisa.

From the video footage I've seen, the army has tanks rolling through the streets but the people are celebrating it. I've read reports of police taking off their badges and joining the protesters. From what I can tell, the tanks are actually going to protect the protesters. (As it appears now anyways...)

I've also read that they are chanting outside of some main office (I cba to look up the article again) "The people and the army unite as one" (paraphrasing)

[Waser Lave]

As for Iran, yes, they do have Ayatollahs, but they also have a president who is supposed to listen to the Ayatollah. If these theocratic organizations do manage to secure power or at least momentum within the people, we could see a leader emerge that is similar to the situation in Iran.

I doubt that would happen in Egypt to the same extent, as Islamic countries go Egypt is fairly liberal.

[redlion]

Well Patrick, I do agree with you... but I am also just now reading more heavily into the situation and from what I can gather, it looks like the "Muslim Brotherhood" has joined into the protests and is attempting to wedge their way into power. This organization led to the founding of both Hamas and Al Queda from what I can tell...

As for Iran, yes, they do have Ayatollahs, but they also have a president who is supposed to listen to the Ayatollah. If these theocratic organizations do manage to secure power or at least momentum within the people, we could see a leader emerge that is similar to the situation in Iran.

So the Muslim Brotherhood can't believe in freedom of expression? Or free elections? I'm surprised Cody... freedoms don't have a party affiliation attached to them.

As for Iran... you should read my edits I fixed the wording to make my meaning clear. As far as I'm concerned, you're fear mongering. The process of revolution has only just started. Trying to say who will be in power when they're done is like trying to predict college basketball finals scores. Except in Egypt's case, about 80 million people actually care.

[Faval]

From the video footage I've seen, the army has tanks rolling through the streets but the people are celebrating it. I've read reports of police taking off their badges and joining the protesters. From what I can tell, the tanks are actually going to protect the protesters. (As it appears now anyways...)

I've also read that they are chanting outside of some main office (I cba to look up the article again) "The people and the army unite as one" (paraphrasing)

Really? From what I've read, the army was sent into Cairo to enforce a curfew. And Egypt has two armies...the normal regular Egyptian army and the republican army that was designed to protect the government in case of a military coup. The later is a smaller but better equipped army.

I have heard of some police refusing to fire tear gas into crowds though and I think they left downtown Cairo? Also just heard about people looting the ruling party's headquarters.

Edit: "7:50p (Cairo) Reports from Al Jazeera indicate that the military may be clashing with police at the Ministry of the Interior." - Tanks vs Tear gas?

Edited by Faval, 28 January 2011 - 01:56 PM.

[WharfRat]

So the Muslim Brotherhood can't believe in freedom of expression? Or free elections? I'm surprised Cody... freedoms don't have a party affiliation attached to them.

As for Iran... you should read my edits I fixed the wording to make my meaning clear. As far as I'm concerned, you're fear mongering. The process of revolution has only just started. Trying to say who will be in power when they're done is like trying to predict college basketball finals scores. Except in Egypt's case, about 80 million people actually care.

Don't get me confused here, Patrick. I'm certainly not fear mongering or suggesting that the Muslim Brotherhood can't promote freedom of expression. I'm completely for the revolution in that I hope that it does grant the people the rights that I believe they all deserve. What I am saying is that the U.S. diplomatically has to be clearly concerned over the potential outcomes. The current president is a major ally for us in the U.S. and his removal would undoubtedly be worrying to us diplomatically and economically. I believe that the U.S. is going to attempt to support the protests (namely the peaceful ones) and support the promotion of human rights... but I also think that they are going to try to ensure that the current president keeps his position. The only other real option is for the U.S. to just kind of take a completely hands off approach and let it resolve on its own without the interest of the U.S. even being considered. (Which looking at the United States' historical involvement in the Middle East appears doubtful.)

I'm far from fear mongering... I'm simply looking at the situation and its possible outcomes from the perspective of the United States diplomats.

[Warriors]

Yes it does look the Muslim Brotherhood is joining in today. It's likely they're put themselves in power after it's all done...but they aren't actually deemed a terrorist group by the US, just by Russia.



Apparently...a few people report having dial up access in some parts...better than nothing when they're probably going to do some gruesome things later.

It seems mostly that the Muslim Brotherhood is riding the bandwagon..They are not in the forefront of this opposition.

ElBaradei is on the forefront but it does not seem he could be President maybe more of just a voice of these protesters. Doesn't mean he can't be President, just doesn't seem likely.

[WharfRat]

To be even more realistic, I'd suggest you all go fill up on gasoline now... I don't know that the Suez Canal will be blocked... but if it is, oil prices will skyrocket. Even if it isn't, mere speculation is going to make it go up.

Once again... I'm not attempting to monger fear... I'm just being realistic on how the world works.

[Faval]

To be even more realistic, I'd suggest you all go fill up on gasoline now... I don't know that the Suez Canal will be blocked... but if it is, oil prices will skyrocket. Even if it isn't, mere speculation is going to make it go up.

Once again... I'm not attempting to monger fear... I'm just being realistic on how the world works.

Hmm well even if you fill up on gasoline...it would still fuck with the entire economy. We need fuel to deliver stuff

[Warriors]

Supposedly....

Egypt's embattled President Hosni Mubarak said early Saturday that he had asked his Cabinet to resign, and promised reforms in his first response to protesters who have mounted the biggest challenge ever to his 30-year rule.

I guess he is turning it around.

[MiladyM]

I'm so glad my vacation in Egypt was over before all this Its horrible

[Mr. Hobo]

How many people are actually involved?

[Warriors]

How many people are actually involved?

What do you mean?

There are reports of 30,000 to 90,000 protesters..6 dead so far this week and over 500 people were arrested...