56 replies to this topic

[Moss]

So has anyone else heard of Krokodil or Desomorphine. Its the poor homemade version of Heroin, it sound absolutely terrifying and Russia needs to ban it immediately or at least do something.

Opinions?

[Faerhii]

D:

Ew.

[Random]

Because banning drugs stops them from being produced.

So has anyone else heard of Krokodil or Desomorphine. Its the poor homemade version of Heroin, it sound absolutely terrifying and Russia needs to ban it immediately or at least do something.

[Moss]

What I ment is, that only recently they took down the main website that in detail gave them instructions on how to produce the drug. So shouldn't they have been a bit more proactive and taken down the site faster.

Because banning drugs stops them from being produced.

[Random]

What I ment is, that only recently they took down the main website that in detail gave them instructions on how to produce the drug. So shouldn't they have been a bit more proactive and taken down the site faster.

That really isn't going to deter anyone determined enough to make the drug from doing it. It's not like the youth of Russia is stumbling upon these sites and then going to ask mommy and daddy for pots, pans, and pain thinner.

Also, once one website is taken down, more will rise. Plus, people do share information by word of mouth.

[Waser Lave]

What I ment is, that only recently they took down the main website that in detail gave them instructions on how to produce the drug. So shouldn't they have been a bit more proactive and taken down the site faster.

Or they should encourage it amongst those already doing it thereby removing them from the population quicker?

[Faerhii]

Because banning drugs stops them from being produced.

Good point.
I enjoy banned substances sometimes. ;D

[Random]

Or they should encourage it amongst those already doing it thereby removing them from the population quicker?

+1

Better they make it and die than rob a store to steal money for heroine

[Moss]

Well considering that my cousin was the one who brought this to my attention because his friend is in rehab from using krokodil then yes I do think that the youth is as you put it stumbling on such sites.

I agree with you that once a website is taken down more will pop up, but I just feel that the Russian government could have done a bit more to try to have prevented this a bit more than it did.

That really isn't going to deter anyone determined enough to make the drug from doing it. It's not like the youth of Russia is stumbling upon these sites and then going to ask mommy and daddy for pots, pans, and pain thinner.

Also, once one website is taken down, more will rise. Plus, people do share information by word of mouth.

[Random]

Well considering that my cousin was the one who brought this to my attention because his friend is in rehab from using krokodil then yes I do think that the youth is as you put it stumbling on such sites.

I agree with you that once a website is taken down more will pop up, but I just feel that the Russian government could have done a bit more to try to have prevented this a bit more than it did.

I thought your college research paper brought this to your attention?

[Moss]

Nope, my cousin brought it to my attention so I decided to research what it was for my college paper on drugs in the world and I found those links.

I thought your college research paper brought this to your attention?

[Random]

Nope, my cousin brought it to my attention so I decided to research what it was for my college paper on drugs in the world and I found those links.

I see.

Regardless, there really isn't any way that the government can stamp this drug out. They can only take precautions to control it as other places have done with other homemade drugs such as meth.

[Moss]

I see.

Regardless, there really isn't any way that the government can stamp this drug out. They can only take precautions to control it as other places have done with other homemade drugs such as meth.

Look I can tell that you don't believe me, and thats fine.
I just wanted to post this up so other people were aware of this drug and what it does to people who use it. I'm fine with most forms of drugs considering I do smoke pot from time to time, its just that with drugs like this and meth, they should at least try to ban all forms of it or like you said control them.

[Therion]

Look I can tell that you don't believe me, and thats fine.
I just wanted to post this up so other people were aware of this drug and what it does to people who use it. I'm fine with most forms of drugs considering I do smoke pot from time to time, its just that with drugs like this and meth, they should at least try to ban all forms of it or like you said control them.

I think his point was banning something that could be made with basic chemistry skills and a desire to screw themselves up wouldn't fix anything, you'd just be forced to prosecute already severely damaged people (and in rare cases distributors). Best way to combat things like that is just to educate people and hope they have the willpower and social comforts not to be tempted to go down that road.

[Inver]

As far as addictive college drugs go - I've recently been exposed to the glorious world of adderall. Which is basically legal mini meth.

[Cyo]

Big deal, a couple of Russians here and there. Nobody's going to miss them anyway (not because they're Russian but because those using krokodil are probably already of no use to society).

[Amagius]

Look I can tell that you don't believe me, and thats fine.
I just wanted to post this up so other people were aware of this drug and what it does to people who use it. I'm fine with most forms of drugs considering I do smoke pot from time to time, its just that with drugs like this and meth, they should at least try to ban all forms of it or like you said control them.

As long as desomorphine's production cost is cheaper than heroin's retail price, this will be a problem.

I'm only saying things you know, but:
If you criminalize it, Russia (see: most everywhere) struggles with enforcement. Enforcement ideally stopped ALL drug use, but to make the numbers easy, let's say 20% of potential users quit or don't start. So, let's remember, our GOAL is to get everyone to stop taking fucking 'Crocodile.' Law enforcement is targeting vendors and users; due to the nature of usage and the nature of sale, prices do go up. The users, strung out and sinking, have less purchasing power; so they rob and destroy any sober civil society in their ghettos. The vendors are controlling a now-growing-in-lucre product; they must purchase weapons to protect themselves from the hungry and the drug-addled, and they receive little incentive to quit vending--where there is increased risk (theft, death), the profit has increased.

20 million are being rehabilitated or have recovered from Heroin / 'Crocodile', your current users suffer even more (addiction is such an exceptional case in policy), and your vendors (who are now or were criminals) make good money and find better ways to fool you. Depending on what you value, you could call this a net-positive overall, but there are alternatives in policy and in enforcement. Legalization is one, one that I believe solves our GOAL most effectively.

Edit: I formatted my computer last week and haven't installed Adobe CS5 yet, but five minutes in Paint will give you an idea of how serious the epidemic has grown. They look so happy.



Edit: Simon, Jesus Christ. Almost† makes me want to take down the Krawk.

[ilovepolkadots]

Or they should encourage it amongst those already doing it thereby removing them from the population quicker?

if you saw the pictures of what happens to these peoples' flesh you would not say that



as a side note some people don't simply start doing heroine
i know several people from my home town who are now addicted to black tar heroine
because they smoked a joint/purchased marijuana that was laced with it

i doubt you will find any heroine addict who is happy to be on heroine
and if they are now, they wont be for long

As far as addictive college drugs go - I've recently been exposed to the glorious world of adderall. Which is basically legal mini meth.

at most it is diet coke

Edited by ilovepolkadots, 11 November 2011 - 08:40 AM.

[Waser Lave]

if you saw the pictures of what happens to these peoples' flesh you would not say that

Yes I would. It was their conscious decision to start taking drugs in the first place, people like that and the inevitable crime and misery they bring, are better off out of society entirely.

[ilovepolkadots]

Yes I would. It was their conscious decision to start taking drugs in the first place, people like that and the inevitable crime and misery they bring, are better off out of society entirely.

not everyone wakes up an decides to start doing highly addictive drugs such as cocaine, heroine and meth
people make mistakes; i personally would never wish suffer and death on anyone because they are in an unfortunate situation brought on by drug addiction

[Amagius]

Yes I would. It was their conscious decision to start taking drugs in the first place, people like that and the inevitable crime and misery they bring, are better off out of society entirely.

Easy for you to say.

'It was their conscious decision to start taking drugs in the first place' is undeniable.

But, 'people like that' is insulting--they were born into their State, their state, their family, wealth, social status, race, political structure, etc. I would ask you to walk in their shoes for a bit. You and I won't though--they now smell like iodine.

'and the inevitable crime' they bring is as great as the human condition allows it. Its (i.e. drugs) value is augmented by certain regulations.

'and misery they bring' is simply a byproduct of reality. You can either slam your fist down in righteous fury or make a difference. What are the original problems? Ignoring some capitalistic "They aren't being productive!", it's that they are stuck in a spiral of self-destruction and they tax their neighbors. No way around this problem--drugs aren't disappearing. You can treat addicts like scum, but they'll keep showing up nonetheless. So: How do we solve this problem?

And 'better off taken out of society entirely'--like an animal (Would you like a cage or prefer Old Yeller style?). Sure, we may be animals, but we are humans and as a race generally respect that distinction. Addiction is a disease inasmuch as it requires a panacea you likely cannot concoct; bill the State or bill their families, but don't act like they are criminals. Their crime is entirely manufactured unless it is the State's authority to help them.

[Waser Lave]

not everyone wakes up an decides to start doing highly addictive drugs such as cocaine, heroine and meth
people make mistakes; i personally would never wish suffer and death on anyone because they are in an unfortunate situation brought on by drug addiction

If somebody held them down and forced the needle in their arm then fine, that's not their fault. In reality I think it's fair to say that there's very few instances where that actually occurs.

But, 'people like that' is insulting--they were born into their State, their state, their family, wealth, social status, race, political structure, etc. I would ask you to walk in their shoes for a bit. You and I won't though--they now smell like iodine.

None of those things mean that somebody has to choose to turn to hard drugs, the vast majority of people who also struggle in life don't decide to do that. Quite frankly, people who blame their drug taking on other people/institutions/events etc are just unwilling to accept their own responsibility for the situation.

'and the inevitable crime' they bring is as great as the human condition allows it. Its (i.e. drugs) value is augmented by certain regulations.

I have no idea what you're getting at on this one.

[font="Lucida Sans Unicode"]
'and misery they bring' is simply a byproduct of reality. You can either slam your fist down in righteous fury or make a difference. What are the original problems? Ignoring some capitalistic "They aren't being productive!", it's that they are stuck in a spiral of self-destruction and they tax their neighbors. No way around this problem--drugs aren't disappearing. You can treat addicts like scum, but they'll keep showing up nonetheless. So: How do we solve this problem?

I was referring to the misery they bring not only to their neighbours from things like burglary, theft etc to fund their habit but also the misery they bring to their own families in a lot of cases. If they funded their own habit through legal means such as working I would have no problem, how they spend their own money is their choice, but most of them don't, most of them fund it by causing problems for strangers by relatively minor things like burglary and at worst violent crimes. Those kinds of addicts are effectively parasites on society, how we solve that I have no idea, you'd have to ask them why they decided to start on that decline in the first place.

[font="Lucida Sans Unicode"]
And 'better off taken out of society entirely' like an animal. Sure, we may be animals, but we are humans and as a race generally respect that distinction. Addiction is a disease inasmuch as it requires a panacea you likely cannot concoct; bill the State or bill their families, but don't act like they are criminals. Their crime is entirely manufactured unless it is the State's authority to help them.

As I said, I have no problem with them taking drugs if they're funding their habit with their own money, when they decide to turn to crime to fund that habit and ruin the lives of innocent people that's when it gets to a situation where they need to be removed from society until they can be reformed. If they aren't willing or able to be reformed then obviously they need to be kept out of society for both their own good and for the good of everybody else.

[Therion]

if you saw the pictures of what happens to these peoples' flesh you would not say that



as a side note some people don't simply start doing heroine
i know several people from my home town who are now addicted to black tar heroine
because they smoked a joint/purchased marijuana that was laced with it

i doubt you will find any heroine addict who is happy to be on heroine
and if they are now, they wont be for long





at most it is diet coke

No sympathy. If you're going to be doing marijuana you better be damn sure where you're getting it from is reliable. Because it's illegal means there's absolutely no regulations on it. You could be smoking all kinds of shit without realising until it's hit you. A friend of mine smoked some weed laced with cocaine and it really messed her up, we don't really speak any more but I can only hope that it was a learning experience and she's more careful with who she buys from.

[Melchoire]

The drug itself in a pure form is just an opiate analogue. No more dangerous than heroin. However the way it's prepared is incredibly unsanitary and users end up with severe tissue damage when they inject it.

What Russia needs is a Walter White.

[Applepi]

Easy for you to say.

'It was their conscious decision to start taking drugs in the first place' is undeniable.

But, 'people like that' is insulting--they were born into their State, their state, their family, wealth, social status, race, political structure, etc. I would ask you to walk in their shoes for a bit. You and I won't though--they now smell like iodine.

'and the inevitable crime' they bring is as great as the human condition allows it. Its (i.e. drugs) value is augmented by certain regulations.

'and misery they bring' is simply a byproduct of reality. You can either slam your fist down in righteous fury or make a difference. What are the original problems? Ignoring some capitalistic "They aren't being productive!", it's that they are stuck in a spiral of self-destruction and they tax their neighbors. No way around this problem--drugs aren't disappearing. You can treat addicts like scum, but they'll keep showing up nonetheless. So: How do we solve this problem?

And 'better off taken out of society entirely'--like an animal (Would you like a cage or prefer Old Yeller style?). Sure, we may be animals, but we are humans and as a race generally respect that distinction. Addiction is a disease inasmuch as it requires a panacea you likely cannot concoct; bill the State or bill their families, but don't act like they are criminals. Their crime is entirely manufactured unless it is the State's authority to help them.

I'm slightly offended by this. I'm the daughter of a recovering alcholic and I can say that I do feel it was his own fault he started drinking and continued to do so. He wasn't out in the streets committing crime to pay for his habits but instead pulling money out of mine and my brother's college funds. We'd offered him help numerous times and he always half-assed it always ended up back in his drunken stupor. It wasn't UNTIL we started treating him like the scum he was that he finally realized that he really did need to get help or risk losing everything. Yes I do believe addiction (of any form) is a disease but that doesn't completely absolve addicts from all responsibility. They do become a burden on society and add to crime rates, you can't argue that. Punishment for their actions shouldn't fall on their families or the State (as it so often does). I'm sick of seeing addicts use government dollars (in the form of food stamps, welfare, social security, etc) to fund their drug habits...Why should taxpayers have to pay for this??