18 replies to this topic

[Frank274]

Been a while since I posted here, so I thought this was perfect to open up with.

http://news.yahoo.co...-081930074.html

Manuel Diaz's family filed a lawsuit Tuesday against the city of Anaheim and its police department, claiming that he was shot and killed Saturday while running away...

Let's discuss this (not a debate). I personally think the cop was in the right. If you did nothing wrong, why would you run?

And for people in different countries, how is the public/law enforcement relationship there?

[Waser Lave]

Police Chief John Welter said Diaz was shot after two officers approached three men who were acting suspiciously in an alley before running away. One officer chased Diaz to the front of an apartment complex.

The chief would not say what led the officer to shoot Diaz. But he failed to heed orders to stop and threw something on the roof of the complex that contained what officers believe to be heroin, Welter said. Both officers were placed on paid leave pending an investigation.

Mayor Tom Tait said a description from court papers relayed to him by a reporter that Diaz had been shot in the leg and in the back of his head was "unsettling."

Why would you shoot somebody for a relatively minor crime like drug possession/dealing? In my opinion deadly force should only be used where lives are directly at risk if that person isn't stopped immediately.

[Frank274]

Why would you shoot somebody for a relatively minor crime like drug possession/dealing? In my opinion deadly force should only be used where lives are directly at risk if that person isn't stopped immediately.

I agree here. I think the majority of the riots is caused not by the kid actually getting shot, but because it was more than likely a white officer who shot a Hispanic. California has already had it's fair share of white vs Hispanic cases, and this is just icing on the top now.

[luvsmyncis]

Let's discuss this (not a debate). I personally think the cop was in the right. If you did nothing wrong, why would you run?

He ran because he had drugs and didn't want to get caught.

Why would you shoot somebody for a relatively minor crime like drug possession/dealing? In my opinion deadly force should only be used where lives are directly at risk if that person isn't stopped immediately.

I feel like it's a tricky situation. There's no telling if someone has a weapon stashed in the place they are running to, in this case, the front of an apartment. The officer might have feared for his own safety, but I think the shot to Diaz's leg would have sufficed. They probably could have done without the shot to the back of the head.

[Frizzle]

Why would you shoot somebody for a relatively minor crime like drug possession/dealing? In my opinion deadly force should only be used where lives are directly at risk if that person isn't stopped immediately.

You mean an offence that carries a life sentence is a minor crime? Please tell me you don't vote.

I feel like it's a tricky situation. There's no telling if someone has a weapon stashed in the place they are running to, in this case, the front of an apartment. The officer might have feared for his own safety, but I think the shot to Diaz's leg would have sufficed. They probably could have done without the shot to the back of the head.

How good a shot do you think police officers are? In fact, how good anyone is, under the amount of pressure?

[Waser Lave]

You mean an offence that carries a life sentence is a minor crime?

Yes.

[Frizzle]

Then you obviously have an uneducated opinion.

[Waser Lave]

Then you obviously have an uneducated opinion.

I know, it will cause me sleepless nights.

[iargue]

Why would you shoot somebody for a relatively minor crime like drug possession/dealing? In my opinion deadly force should only be used where lives are directly at risk if that person isn't stopped immediately.

To be completely fair, its impossible to actually know what happened there. He was shot in the leg, and in the back of the head. Perhaps they shot him in the leg, and he reached into his waistband, like he had a weapon, and so they shot him in the head to prevent him from killing them? We just don't know, and we wont know what really happened unless someone video taped it.

When it comes to being a police officer, especially when dealing with gangs, its not an easy job. Police deaths have been climbing every single year. Imagine stopping someone in a vehicle and approaching them to write them a ticket. Are they gangbangers with drugs and weapons in the car? Does the driver have a gun in his lap, ready to shoot you? You have no clue. Imagine you approach three people in an alley way, clearly doing a drug deal. All three of them are gang members. When they see you, they turn and run and so you shoot one of them, and he falls down onto one knee. But instead of putting his hands in the air like you tell him to he reaches down inside his pants, a place were you've seen others pull guns. Your instinct? Stop him before he kills me.

but, it also could be all lies they are telling. They could have came upon drug dealers in the alley way, they ran, shot one of them, and walked up behind him and shot him in the back of the head and laughed. Very well could have gone that way. But we trust these people to protect us from a very bad element. We ask them to place their lives in danger constantly, for our own self assurance. we should at least give them the benefit of the doubt over a known criminal. Right?

[Mishelle]

I feel like it's a tricky situation. There's no telling if someone has a weapon stashed in the place they are running to, in this case, the front of an apartment. The officer might have feared for his own safety, but I think the shot to Diaz's leg would have sufficed. They probably could have done without the shot to the back of the head.

If he had enough drugs on him to get him prison time then he would've definitely had a weapon on him not hidden away. Here in California we have personal use laws where if you have less than an oz of marijuana on you you just get a ticket. So if he had more than that then he would've definitely needed protection by keeping the weapon on him in case he were to get robbed like many drug dealers do (it's not like they can go to the cops)

I understand where both sides are coming from. Lots of cops here have to deal with a lot of shit. Since we're so close to Mexico there's a lot of drug activity and violence thanks to our ~drug war!~ but at the same time I also realize why Hispanics and Latin@s are angry. They get routinely taken advantage of in California. There's recently been a spike in targeting them for traffic violations and repossessing their car because if they're undocumented they can't contest or take it to court at the risk of being deported so they just pay all the fines. The same situation with theft, robbery and so on. They go after them because they won't go to the police if they happen to be undocumented. Citizens take advantage of them and police take advantage of them, they're starting to get pretty pissed.

[luvsmyncis]

How good a shot do you think police officers are? In fact, how good anyone is, under the amount of pressure?

Well, I suppose we'd all just fire our guns blindly if someone tries to outrun us. It's not like police officers go through years of training or anything, amirite?

Since we're so close to Mexico there's a lot of drug activity and violence thanks to our ~drug war!~ but at the same time I also realize why Hispanics and Latin@s are angry. They get routinely taken advantage of in California. There's recently been a spike in targeting them for traffic violations and repossessing their car because if they're undocumented they can't contest or take it to court at the risk of being deported so they just pay all the fines.

LOL maybe undocumented Mexicans living in California should stop breaking traffic laws. Run that red light and when the cop pulls you over and takes a look at your papers, you can't cry discrimination. He didn't pull you over just because you're brown. You did something wrong. Racism goes both ways. To think you're a victim simply because the cop pulling you over is white and you aren't is RACIST. We're all the same, amigo. Stop breaking the law.

This isn't like Trevon Martin who was just minding his own business, walking home, being black. This was a drug bust gone bad. The outrage doesn't fit the scenario.

[Mishelle]

There are people who get pulled over on ~routine traffic stops~. I remember I was walking with 3 guys getting a ride to class and these cops were in my apartment complex watching us. They waited for us to get in the car, start up the car and pull out. As soon as we pulled out they pulled us over saying there was a meth problem and they were routinely stopping people looking for meth.

[Frank274]

LOL maybe undocumented Mexicans living in California should stop breaking traffic laws.

Although this has kinda gotten off topic, I agree. Being undocumented in the US is illegal as it is, so this "profiling" and "discrimination" is kind of their own fault. It only takes one person to ruin it for everyone. If Hispanics (and blacks, for any matter) want to stop being discriminated against, they should police their own. Blacks get discriminated against because most crimes in the US are performed by blacks. Hispanics are profiled against because there is a high number of illegal immigrants. Whites are discriminated against because we are the majority and anything we do towards a minority group is automatically assumed as racist.

Back on topic. I agree with argue and prbm in that we won't know the full situation. Maybe he did act like he was gonna pull a gun? He apparently DID throw something on the roof, so he was obviously carrying something he didn't want the cop to have. If you do something illegal, and you die because of it, I don't think there should be this much outrage.

We ask them to place their lives in danger constantly, for our own self assurance. we should at least give them the benefit of the doubt over a known criminal. Right?

There is no Constitutional obligation that cops must defend us. So yes. I think if they willingly put their lives in danger, we should take their side (unless there is stark evidence that they purposely killed someone or killed "just because").

There are people who get pulled over on ~routine traffic stops~. I remember I was walking with 3 guys getting a ride to class and these cops were in my apartment complex watching us. They waited for us to get in the car, start up the car and pull out. As soon as we pulled out they pulled us over saying there was a meth problem and they were routinely stopping people looking for meth.

Is that a bad thing? No offense, but 1) do you live in a neighborhood where meth runs rampant? 2) Were you or your 3 friends dressed like most gang members (baggy clothes, only wearing certain colors, etc. and 3) Would you rather be pulled over and have nothing bad on you, as in a routine stop, or would you rather they miss someone that is selling meth?

A routine traffic stop may seem inconvenient to you, when you've done nothing wrong, but how much safer would you feel knowing that they stopped a drug dealer from walking the streets?

[Waser Lave]

Back on topic. I agree with argue and prbm in that we won't know the full situation. Maybe he did act like he was gonna pull a gun? He apparently DID throw something on the roof, so he was obviously carrying something he didn't want the cop to have. If you do something illegal, and you die because of it, I don't think there should be this much outrage.

Just as we don't know if he acted like he was going to pull a gun or not we also don't know for sure if he did throw something away and if he did we don't know for sure that it was drugs. At the moment there's not enough information to form a definitive judgement of what happened on either side.

[Mishelle]

Although this has kinda gotten off topic, I agree. Being undocumented in the US is illegal as it is, so this "profiling" and "discrimination" is kind of their own fault. It only takes one person to ruin it for everyone. If Hispanics (and blacks, for any matter) want to stop being discriminated against, they should police their own. Blacks get discriminated against because most crimes in the US are performed by blacks. Hispanics are profiled against because there is a high number of illegal immigrants. Whites are discriminated against because we are the majority and anything we do towards a minority group is automatically assumed as racist.

Back on topic. I agree with argue and prbm in that we won't know the full situation. Maybe he did act like he was gonna pull a gun? He apparently DID throw something on the roof, so he was obviously carrying something he didn't want the cop to have. If you do something illegal, and you die because of it, I don't think there should be this much outrage.



There is no Constitutional obligation that cops must defend us. So yes. I think if they willingly put their lives in danger, we should take their side (unless there is stark evidence that they purposely killed someone or killed "just because").



Is that a bad thing? No offense, but 1) do you live in a neighborhood where meth runs rampant? 2) Were you or your 3 friends dressed like most gang members (baggy clothes, only wearing certain colors, etc. and 3) Would you rather be pulled over and have nothing bad on you, as in a routine stop, or would you rather they miss someone that is selling meth?

A routine traffic stop may seem inconvenient to you, when you've done nothing wrong, but how much safer would you feel knowing that they stopped a drug dealer from walking the streets?

In regards to discrimination against Black and Latinos I suggest you read a book called The Color of Crime by Kathyrn Russel-Brown. Racial profiling not only wastes taxpayer money but also does nothing to deter crime rates.

There's barely any crime in my town, other than the high rates of rape which often comes along with living in a college town. I was on my way to my university and I was dressed for school. All my friends go to the same college as I do. We're all Black. That's why we got pulled over. The cops in this town are incredibly racist I don't know how many times I've had to deal with them and they've made a comment on how "I'm so well-spoken" just because I don't speak in ebonics.

[Frank274]

We're all Black. That's why we got pulled over. The cops in this town are incredibly racist I don't know how many times I've had to deal with them and they've made a comment on how "I'm so well-spoken" just because I don't speak in ebonics.

I'm white. Is that why I don't get pulled over? Them being racist has nothing to do with you getting pulled over. Maybe they'll target you more, but doesn't mean they are racist. I go back to my point that the majority of crimes are executed by blacks. Does it make me racist that I feel uneasy when I go into an all black neighborhood? No. Statistically and sociologically speaking, I'm acting in accordance to the way I should. Again, it only takes one to mess it up for the group (I really am bringing out my Sociology studies now). If there weren't as many crimes committed by blacks, maybe y'all wouldn't get discriminated against.

Don't think I'm only saying this because "he's white, he doesn't understand," when in reality I do. I've had my fair share of dick cops and nice cops. It's who the cop is, not the color of your skin.

[Mishelle]

I'm white. Is that why I don't get pulled over? Them being racist has nothing to do with you getting pulled over. Maybe they'll target you more, but doesn't mean they are racist. I go back to my point that the majority of crimes are executed by blacks. Does it make me racist that I feel uneasy when I go into an all black neighborhood? No. Statistically and sociologically speaking, I'm acting in accordance to the way I should. Again, it only takes one to mess it up for the group (I really am bringing out my Sociology studies now). If there weren't as many crimes committed by blacks, maybe y'all wouldn't get discriminated against.

Don't think I'm only saying this because "he's white, he doesn't understand," when in reality I do. I've had my fair share of dick cops and nice cops. It's who the cop is, not the color of your skin.

Lol everything you just said was debunked in the 90s by the novel I just asked you to read. It has nothing to do with their race is has to do with poverty. You have a higher chance of being robbed in Compton than you would walking through Baldwin Hills. Compton has poor Black people. Baldwin Hills has rich Black people. You also have a pretty high chance of being robbed in Santee which is a city filled with poor White people. And yes my skin color definitely did matter. There was no reason for us to be pulled over, there was no probable cause other than 3 Black guys and 1 Black girl walking. I didn't see anyone else getting pulled over. I even went around and asked other people in my complex had they been pulled over by cops looking for meth, they told me no. I'm not stupid. I know I'm being degraded when people make comments about how I speak because they're shocked that I have the capacity to pronounce my e's and r's.

Our criminal justice system is racist, this is not brand new information. I'm not saying that all people of color are innocent and all white people are guilty. But I'm just saying it's most definitely racist and justice is served to White people way more than to people of color.

http://www.americanp...pten_jail.html/

I also find it really hard to believe you got through a (presumably) college level sociology class with absolutely no concept of privilege http://video.google....249801848706206

Edited by Mishelle, 25 July 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[Frizzle]

Lol there is a clear racial definition in certain criminal activity. There is also a sexual/gender and socio-economic correlation between certain crimes.

Gonna get robbed? 90% chance it's black male under 21.
Gonna get burgled? 90% chance its a white guy in his 30-40s.
Gonna get molested as a child? Again, old white guy who's a family friend/member.

To state there is no correlation between certain crimes and race is political correctness gone mad.

You might wanna talk to the guys at the Metropolitan Police Service's TRIDENT unit.

[redlion]

Lol there is a clear racial definition in certain criminal activity. There is also a sexual/gender and socio-economic correlation between certain crimes.

Gonna get robbed? 90% chance it's black male under 21.
Gonna get burgled? 90% chance its a white guy in his 30-40s.
Gonna get molested as a child? Again, old white guy who's a family friend/member.

To state there is no correlation between certain crimes and race is political correctness gone mad.

The cause of the crime is not taken into consideration in statistics. Historical poverty has more to do with crime than race. Certain castes traditionally steal in different ways. Young poor men mug people, while poor old men steal from houses or (smart old men) from company accounts. It's a matter of finding the cornucopia of evidence. The correlation between race and crime is meaningless unless you also correlate the state of the man's clothes, his demeanor, his actions, his possessions, his thoughts and speech. Race can't tell you as much as the other evidence staring you in the face. (except speech and thoughts aren't seen)

Also, I'll second Mishelle's video of Tim Wise. I learned a lot about white privilege the first time I saw it, but I'm glad I saw it after my film class on the subject.