86 replies to this topic

[EggTamer]

Why do you cheat, how do you justify it to yourself? That is, assuming that you do cheat, but I assume a fair majority of the users on this site do (if you don't, feel free to explain why you decided not to!)

I am actually curious. I am a legit player, but I see the temptation in some of the methods of cheating - but I have decided that I will not give in. I may change my mind someday, and hopefully it will be for a good reason. I assume that there have been others that have gone through a similair internal dilemma before deciding to give in and start autobuying/playing/etc. So, what's your story? Especially in terms of the methods that are not victimless (i.e. score senders bumping legit scores, autobuyers competing with legit restockers), which I assume would require the greatest moral appeasing.

[Tailwind]

My at the time 8 year old account was frozen for buying and selling pets when I had done no such thing. The account was my childhood one and completely legit. So I had like, nothing to speak of on it and never reached my first million NP.

 

Decided to come back and cheat my way through everything. Amazingly enough I've been cheating for 3 years straight now and not been caught. Funny how stuff works.

[Mud]

Probably because having any real NP would require hours and hours of RSing which I don't have the time for, so I AB. I used to play Neo when I was a kid and that was like my only dream lol, to be a neo-millionaire. I don't see anything wrong with cheating on a virtual kids site, as long as it's not scamming people or w/e.

Edited by Mud, 04 March 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Waser Lave]

There's nothing to justify with regard to using programs because they are actually victimless (despite what you said in your first post).

[Token]

It's a game. Neocodex is just the Gameshark.

[Beasy]

It's a game. Neocodex is just the Gameshark.

Yup. I never felt bad for my Lv 100 pokemon and unlimited master balls either

[KaibaSama]

I've tried restocking on my own, and missed everything good. So, if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Plus, I'm to lazy to actually sit around for hours refreshing a page. Plus, the community is wonderful and the guides here and amazing. (The AOB ones as they've helped me get game avatars I couldn't get on my own.)

Edited by Satsuki, 04 March 2013 - 02:27 PM.

[RitzWin]

There's nothing to justify with regard to using programs because they are actually victimless (despite what you said in your first post).

 

I would rephrase that, there are 'victims' but those are the players who are not smart enough, or unwilling to change to the way the game is played nowadays.  Adapt or die.

[Keil]

I originally quit after the Maraquan War because I though I was too old of playing this game. Then I came back. I forgot my old account's details and I tried making a new account. I saw how everything was overpriced and I didn't feel like putting in the effort of playing ever single game 3 times each anymore. F**k dat. I used google, then I found this place. yay.

 

I really don't see cheating as a bad thing. It's just a whole new way of playing neopets. 

[Syntax]

Because it's easier.

[Waser Lave]

I would rephrase that, there are 'victims' but those are the players who are not smart enough, or unwilling to change to the way the game is played nowadays.  Adapt or die.

I would suggest that to be a victim in such situations you'd have to actually lose something.

[RitzWin]

I would suggest that to be a victim in such situations you'd have to actually lose something.

 

Inflation causes players to lose the buying power of their NP

[Waser Lave]

Inflation causes players to lose the buying power of their NP

Autobuying causes deflation too though as people sell for lower prices to get quicker sales.

[RitzWin]

Autobuying causes deflation too though as people sell for lower prices to get quicker sales.

 

 

I don't see how this is true.  Not all ABers go for small quick profit over long term high profit.  Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see it.

[EggTamer]

So the distinction between scamming and cheating is clear, and I agree
that scamming is worse and respect that this site upholds that
distinction. But I disagree with the statements that some of these
methods are victimless. Getting on a high scores chart illegitimately
and bumping a legitimate player makes that player a victim. You are
preventing this person from obtaining a trophy/avatar, or if we're
nitpicking, that extra 200 or whatever neopoints per day (yeah, minor
issue). Autobuying is not literally stealing anything from anyone, but
it is preventing a legitimate restocker, who is putting in time and
effort, from obtaining something. It's akin to winning a footrace by
driving a car to the finish line - sure, you're not actually knocking
the player over or stealing anything that they own, but you're stealing
the win from the person using an illegal and unfair advantage, a win
that this person would have (potentially) otherwise obtained themselves.

So we get to the issue that a few brought up, if you can't beat them then
join them. Or, adapt or die. That is the only thing that really tempts
me. The fact that it's easier? Sure, but I'm willing to put in the
effort, and have been. I'm a pretty capable restocker as it is, but
can't even fathom how much more succesful I would be at it if I wasn't
getting beaten by autobuyers.

Then there's those of you who are just lazy bums I've got nothing to counter that, being lazy is damn tempting sometimes.

[trizzle]

I cheat because my internet is so bad, my reaction times so slow and my freetime so limited that I wouldn't be able to make any sufficient NP from properly restocking, hence I wouldn't be able to get the things I want in neopian life.

 

And I really want those things. Hence, sweet sweet abrosia.

[Keil]

I feel like the debate whether or not people have been victimized by Abrosia has already resolved with "fuck it, discussing this isn't worth our time" in a thread over a year old.

[Waser Lave]

I don't see how this is true.  Not all ABers go for small quick profit over long term high profit.  Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see it.

 

I would think most people do, particularly with regard to buyable items. And it definitely works at deflating items, when I used to autobuy I would target high volume, lower profit items mainly in one shop. Over a few weeks you would notice that a lot of the items which had previously been profitable would subsequently drop out of that range as the price went down and your undercutting has a knock-on effect on other people selling the same item. So essentially you have a snowball effect which magnifies it.

Overall I would guess that the inflationary effect of score sending and the deflationary effect of autobuying probably even each other out pretty much. Especially when you consider that score senders make up a pretty small proportion of the NP coming into the economy from playing games.

 

But I disagree with the statements that some of these
methods are victimless. Getting on a high scores chart illegitimately
and bumping a legitimate player makes that player a victim. You are
preventing this person from obtaining a trophy/avatar, or if we're
nitpicking, that extra 200 or whatever neopoints per day (yeah, minor
issue). Autobuying is not literally stealing anything from anyone, but
it is preventing a legitimate restocker, who is putting in time and
effort, from obtaining something. It's akin to winning a footrace by
driving a car to the finish line - sure, you're not actually knocking
the player over or stealing anything that they own, but you're stealing
the win from the person using an illegal and unfair advantage, a win
that this person would have (potentially) otherwise obtained themselves.

 

Essentially it comes down to how you personally define a victim. I don't care about trophies or avatars myself so I don't regard missing out on either of those as being a victim. As for restocking, if we're using your definition then you could also say that legit restockers who don't live in America are victims of the latency difference which makes it more difficult to get good items compared with North American users.

[Token]

Except this is the internet so it doesn't matter if you use a car in a footrace. As long as you reach the finish, correct? The person on foot should, with determination, reach the finish line too. The only difference is that the person on foot can't get in trouble, where you can get in trouble and you are already aware of the consequences.

 

/e to clarify this a little more: You are saying that this is a race, but there is no race. We set goals for ourselves, so it's more of a matter of what you are willing to do and how long you want to take to reach your goals. I understand that you're saying we are stopping people from reaching their goals, but we aren't. If anything we are helping make them the elite, because they will need to increase their gaming, RSing, etc. skills to succeed. The ones who really want to succeed without cheating will get better because they can't progress in the game if they don't.

Edited by Token, 04 March 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[Romy]

Coltom....is that you?

[RitzWin]

So the distinction between scamming and cheating is clear, and I agree
that scamming is worse and respect that this site upholds that
distinction. But I disagree with the statements that some of these
methods are victimless. Getting on a high scores chart illegitimately
and bumping a legitimate player makes that player a victim. You are
preventing this person from obtaining a trophy/avatar, or if we're
nitpicking, that extra 200 or whatever neopoints per day (yeah, minor
issue). Autobuying is not literally stealing anything from anyone, but
it is preventing a legitimate restocker, who is putting in time and
effort, from obtaining something. It's akin to winning a footrace by
driving a car to the finish line - sure, you're not actually knocking
the player over or stealing anything that they own, but you're stealing
the win from the person using an illegal and unfair advantage, a win
that this person would have (potentially) otherwise obtained themselves.

So we get to the issue that a few brought up, if you can't beat them then
join them. Or, adapt or die. That is the only thing that really tempts
me. The fact that it's easier? Sure, but I'm willing to put in the
effort, and have been. I'm a pretty capable restocker as it is, but
can't even fathom how much more succesful I would be at it if I wasn't
getting beaten by autobuyers.

Then there's those of you who are just lazy bums I've got nothing to counter that, being lazy is damn tempting sometimes.

 

The farmer who produces 200 heads of lettuce per year because he uses hand-tools to harvest his crops is hardly becoming a victim of a large business that uses machinery for the same task and produces 200k heads of lettuce.  He's chosen not to invest anything in R&D, for which he pays in our nice Capitalist system

I would think most people do, particularly with regard to buyable items. And it definitely works at deflating items, when I used to autobuy I would target high volume, lower profit items mainly in one shop. Over a few weeks you would notice that a lot of the items which had previously been profitable would subsequently drop out of that range as the price went down and your undercutting has a knock-on effect on other people selling the same item. So essentially you have a snowball effect which magnifies it.

Overall I would guess that the inflationary effect of score sending and the deflationary effect of autobuying probably even each other out pretty much. Especially when you consider that score senders make up a pretty small proportion of the NP coming into the economy from playing games.

 

 

Essentially it comes down to how you personally define a victim. I don't care about trophies or avatars myself so I don't regard missing out on either of those as being a victim. As for restocking, if we're using your definition then you could also say that legit restockers who don't live in America are victims of the latency difference which makes it more difficult to get good items compared with North American users.

This was much more clear thanks.

[Random]

The farmer who produces 200 heads of lettuce per year because he uses hand-tools to harvest his crops is hardly becoming a victim of a large business that uses machinery for the same task and produces 200k heads of lettuce.  He's chosen not to invest anything in R&D, for which he pays in our nice Capitalist system

This was much more clear thanks.

 

Unrelated to Neopets, the farmer only producing 200 heads of lettuce is definitely a victim of the large business. 

[Waser Lave]

Unrelated to Neopets, the farmer only producing 200 heads of lettuce is definitely a victim of the large business. 

 

Does the large business have anything to justify to themselves about it though?

[RitzWin]

Unrelated to Neopets, the farmer only producing 200 heads of lettuce is definitely a victim of the large business. 

 

Communist.

[Random]

Does the large business have anything to justify to themselves about it though?

 

Absolutely not, survival of the fittest. 

 

Communist.

 

Either you're trolling or a have a horrifically poor understanding of economics and the word communist.