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So why do YOU cheat?


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#51 Waser Lave

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:59 AM

No. That is the reason I created an account, yes. But I have been on this site before, using the item database or scrolling through forums. If not now, I likely would have created an account at one point or another, for one reason or another.

I am not here to witch hunt, I am just curious. As stated in the first post, I am not beyond temptation as far as cheating goes, but I resisted - so I'm trying to grasp why some of you would not resist and go forward with it. I am not entirely anti-cheating either, I just feel that consequences should be considered when doing so (and not just to yourself, but to others as well). That is why I actually do respect this community, as you guys have taken a firm stance against scamming/hacking/etc.

 

I suspect you probably misunderstand how people tend to use our programs. For example, you appear to be under the misapprehension that everybody is autobuying at supersonic speeds grabbing every profitable item which restocks and so leaving nothing for legit restockers or that legit restockers have no way to compete with the speeds. In reality, however, people using our autobuyer have an average buy speed of 2.3 seconds from seeing the item restock which is actually not that quick and can be easily beaten playing legitimately (try it yourself, it's not difficult to beat those speeds). We also intentionally slow down the programs by making it so non-Advanced members can only have a minimum refresh rate of 8 seconds which further restricts their efficacy. Not everything is as cut-and-dried as you seem to think. ;)

 

The main benefit comes from saving time and not having to sit there bashing buttons rather than anything superhuman.



#52 Turnip

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:03 AM

I really don't see the point in putting hours and hours of effort doing the same boring, repetitive task, and getting physical sores and pains (eye strains/joint and finger pains/stuff like that) into an online pet dress up site which probably won't be here in five years. Hell, it might get taken down tomorrow or next week for all we know :V Losing my time and effort for a second time wouldn't feel all that great, ya know? Then again, I don't really run the programs all that often since all I do on the site now is doing my dailies, seeing what sort of stupid posts are on the boards, what stupid shit TNT has done this time and now playing solitaire/pyramids, if I remember the site exists in the first place hahah

 

But OP, at the end of the day there isn't all that much of a difference between a legitimate player and one who uses programs. Both will get and miss items from a shop since both have an equal chance to start with (like Laser said, using an ABer doesn't instantly guarantee that you get every single item you want ever that's that nothing for legit players), both will get an amount of NP from games and both have the same chance of getting the highest score/trophy, or low score, and both have an equal chance of getting frozen. It's just when you're using programs, you're able to do more productive things at the same time. If you do happen to get frozen then you don't get thoughts like "wow all that time spent RSing I could have been doing my coursework/gone food shopping/getting laid" :p

 

Surprising how many people (including myself) turned to cheating because TNT wrongfully froze us when we weren't cheating :p

 

That's how I came here too lmao


Edited by Turnip, 05 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.


#53 Justpeachy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:06 AM

Surprising how many people (including myself) turned to cheating because TNT wrongfully froze us when we weren't cheating :p

 

That's the nature of the beast. :)



Cheating def. takes the sting off the time invested in a game, I agree. Plus there is a lot less emotional attachment to said territory.



#54 Itabu

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:38 PM

I cheat because it is just a GAME in the end. It is a game and if it is no longer fun then there is no point. When I have no neopoints, it is not fun. I see no issue with cheating on an online game when it doesn't hurt anyone or steal real money from people. I don't need to justify it to me or you.



#55 Shapesnatch

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:45 PM

As other people have stated, it's harmless. I mean, I think it would be pretty immoral if you were to say, sell your illegitimately obtained NPs for real money, but if you keep the virtual currency within the virtual community, I see nothing wrong of it.



#56 Pilot

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:04 PM

As other people have stated, it's harmless. I mean, I think it would be pretty immoral if you were to say, sell your illegitimately obtained NPs for real money, but if you keep the virtual currency within the virtual community, I see nothing wrong of it.

 

How exactly is it immoral for people to sell nps (illegit or not) for real currency? If by illegit you mean nps that were obtained through various programs



#57 Merk

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:28 PM

I played completely legitimately both as a kid and as a college student until my last main was frozen just for mentioning this site in a Neomail to a friend who was asking for a price checker.

 

I pretty much decided "fuck this" at that point. Especially because you can get frozen or silenced merely for TONE on the boards also.



#58 Waser Lave

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:03 AM

How exactly is it immoral for people to sell nps (illegit or not) for real currency? If by illegit you mean nps that were obtained through various programs

 

Perhaps they're confusing immorality with illegality?



#59 darktank

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:47 PM

I have a question about the argument that neopets programs cause inflation/deflation.

 

Isn't it the release of items into the economy that causes inflation? For example, the AAA definitely put a lot more rare items into circulation causing their prices to drop. But autobuyers don't increase the the quanity of items, it just buys the items and puts them into circulation. It's as if there is a bank that constantly gives away $100 per hour. Regardless of whether there are autobuyers or not, $100 is still entering the economy every hour. But, if the bank increased to giving $1000 per hour, then there would be inflation.

 

And if that is true, then the way supply/demand works will stabilize prices. So autobuyers undercutting everyone else has a negligible effect on the market.


Edited by darktank, 06 March 2013 - 12:49 PM.


#60 Waser Lave

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

I have a question about the argument that neopets programs cause inflation/deflation.

 

Isn't it the release of items into the economy that causes inflation? For example, the AAA definitely put a lot more rare items into circulation causing their prices to drop. But autobuyers don't increase the the quanity of items, it just buys the items and puts them into circulation. It's as if there is a bank that constantly gives away $100 per hour. Regardless of whether there are autobuyers or not, $100 is still entering the economy every hour. But, if the bank increased to giving $1000 per hour, then there would be inflation.

 

And if that is true, then the way supply/demand works will stabilize prices. So autobuyers undercutting everyone else has a negligible effect on the market.

 

Restocking technically causes deflation because Neopoints are actually going out of the economy when people buy the items in main shops. Inflation is really when additional neopoints are put into the economy, the main source of that is people playing games because the additional neopoints are essentially being created from nothing.



#61 darktank

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:39 PM

Restocking technically causes deflation because Neopoints are actually going out of the economy when people buy the items in main shops. Inflation is really when additional neopoints are put into the economy, the main source of that is people playing games because the additional neopoints are essentially being created from nothing.

 

Ohh okay, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation



#62 bigjilm

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:40 PM

because im immature and want everything i couldnt have when i was younger



#63 crookedmaze

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:43 PM

It's a challenge to get to 500m. Way I see it, if your doing it legit, TNT is still likely to freeze you one way or the other over something stupid. Might as well cheat to get there.



#64 Mikhael

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:48 PM

I joined because I was annoyed at missing out constantly on good restocks. I didn't know cheating would be this easy. :p 



#65 Sneaky

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 11:54 AM

I can't remember if I've already posted on here or not, but after a while of playing legitimately I found how HARD it was to actually get anything accomplished on Neo. With popular items being 10mil plus and me earning about 1-3k from each game I played there seemed to be no end to my saving in sight. So I started using an ABer and such. Buying/selling pets....never scamming, just getting things easier.

 

-Honestly I don't know how TNT expects 5k+ people to fight over the same 1-2 popular/rare items that restock in a shop. - w -



#66 Ruri

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:04 PM

Let's just say I'm really bad and impatient when it comes to games. Never did have a large sum of money, and my luck is pretty bad in general so why the heck not.



#67 kamilamutt

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:30 PM

Because it is easier tbh.

I was frozen previously for having multiple accounts when I only had two, I was only 12 at that time so now I just stopped caring about the rules.



#68 kittenxx

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:47 PM

I actually haven't done anything (yet), but I see no other way to obtain dream pets - UCs, without cheating. I lack the time and talent to RSing, and I could never accumulate the millions needed to offer a custom to trade for one, and even then they don't even go for customs these days.



#69 EggTamer

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 02:34 PM

I suspect you probably misunderstand how people tend to use our programs. For example, you appear to be under the misapprehension that everybody is autobuying at supersonic speeds grabbing every profitable item which restocks and so leaving nothing for legit restockers or that legit restockers have no way to compete with the speeds. In reality, however, people using our autobuyer have an average buy speed of 2.3 seconds from seeing the item restock which is actually not that quick and can be easily beaten playing legitimately (try it yourself, it's not difficult to beat those speeds). We also intentionally slow down the programs by making it so non-Advanced members can only have a minimum refresh rate of 8 seconds which further restricts their efficacy. Not everything is as cut-and-dried as you seem to think. ;)

 

The main benefit comes from saving time and not having to sit there bashing buttons rather than anything superhuman.


Actually, I had a pretty good idea of how abers worked before this thread - as I said, I had lurked on these boards occasionally in the past, and much of that was in looking through some of the cheat programs offered and how they worked. Morbid curiousity, I suppose, was the motivation for that. I do realize that abing is not the death of legit restockers, but it is a very difficult competitor (especially when there is someone with high refresh rates in a shop, or maybe multiple abers at once. Sometimes things just go so fast that it's hard to imagine it being anything but an aber).
 

 

I really don't see the point in putting hours and hours of effort doing the same boring, repetitive task, and getting physical sores and pains (eye strains/joint and finger pains/stuff like that) into an online pet dress up site which probably won't be here in five years. Hell, it might get taken down tomorrow or next week for all we know :V Losing my time and effort for a second time wouldn't feel all that great, ya know? Then again, I don't really run the programs all that often since all I do on the site now is doing my dailies, seeing what sort of stupid posts are on the boards, what stupid shit TNT has done this time and now playing solitaire/pyramids, if I remember the site exists in the first place hahah

 

But OP, at the end of the day there isn't all that much of a difference between a legitimate player and one who uses programs. Both will get and miss items from a shop since both have an equal chance to start with (like Laser said, using an ABer doesn't instantly guarantee that you get every single item you want ever that's that nothing for legit players), both will get an amount of NP from games and both have the same chance of getting the highest score/trophy, or low score, and both have an equal chance of getting frozen. It's just when you're using programs, you're able to do more productive things at the same time. If you do happen to get frozen then you don't get thoughts like "wow all that time spent RSing I could have been doing my coursework/gone food shopping/getting laid" :p

 

I get that legitimate restockers can still compete with abers, to some degree anyway (though that's a necessity rather than a kindness from cheaters, if you DID restock too fast, you'd get iced). The difference being that the cheaters are not actually playing the game, but reaping the same or better results. It's not even a matter of jealousy at that point, but a matter of the work of a legit restocker not being properly rewarded. If for every legit item a restocker gets, he/she misses another one that was snatched up before him by an aber, then this legit player is rewarded by half for his/her rightful efforts, and all due to someone who barely lifted a finger for it. And yes, you can, like so many others, say "why should I care?", and it's true, why should you? That's where your morality has to come into play, and if it doesn't then be willing to admit that you're cheating and doing so at the expense of legitimate players.

 

I cheat because it is just a GAME in the end. It is a game and if it is no longer fun then there is no point. When I have no neopoints, it is not fun. I see no issue with cheating on an online game when it doesn't hurt anyone or steal real money from people. I don't need to justify it to me or you.

 

If a game is no longer fun, then stop playing, duh. Why stick around and cheat, and ruin it for those that do still enjoy it?

I also feel like you can just as easily flip your argument around and it would still be valid: I play legitimately because it is just a GAME, why cheat and ruin it for others? (especially since it's a family friendly game)

 

As other people have stated, it's harmless. I mean, I think it would be pretty immoral if you were to say, sell your illegitimately obtained NPs for real money, but if you keep the virtual currency within the virtual community, I see nothing wrong of it.

 

Why are you drawing your moral line at that particular spot? To you, one is harmless but the other is pretty immoral, to a legit player both are just as immoral. I would agree that the sort of cheating that this site condones is less harmful than scamming or hacking, for sure. But I completely disagree that it is harmless, and it is still against the rules in a pretty meaningful way.

 

I played completely legitimately both as a kid and as a college student until my last main was frozen just for mentioning this site in a Neomail to a friend who was asking for a price checker.

 

I pretty much decided "fuck this" at that point. Especially because you can get frozen or silenced merely for TONE on the boards also.


I feel for you, I can't imagine that I would not be tempted if I lost my account, which has years of work put into it. I still feel that it is a bit of an easy way out, and a moral lapse, but it is one that I can't guarantee that I wouldn't also choose.

I suppose there is no chance of you getting your account back, explaining that you were just using the price checker? It seems like a fickle thing to completely ice for, considering the potential to use this site as a legit resource.

 

because im immature and want everything i couldnt have when i was younger


At least you're honest about it, kudos. :)

 

I can't remember if I've already posted on here or not, but after a while of playing legitimately I found how HARD it was to actually get anything accomplished on Neo. With popular items being 10mil plus and me earning about 1-3k from each game I played there seemed to be no end to my saving in sight. So I started using an ABer and such. Buying/selling pets....never scamming, just getting things easier.

 

-Honestly I don't know how TNT expects 5k+ people to fight over the same 1-2 popular/rare items that restock in a shop. - w -

 

Well, you took the easy way out, and compromised some morals in the process. If this is a choice you're okay with, then who am I to argue? But there are other options to making nps. Reselling is good. Food club/stock market are slightly slower, but also good and very quick/easy. NQ2 is pretty fun (in my opinion) and completing insane has a good chance of some top notch items. Restocking, even if you're not good, is viable - there ARE shops where pretty profitable items stock in bulk, so even slower restockers can snag one or two at a time. Investing or speculating can be very profitable and very quick, if you're good.

Also, there is not 5k+ people restocking at one time, especially not in a single shop. There is rarely much over 10k people online at any given time, and with the amount of activities that the site offers, I highly doubt half of them are restocking. There are times when it honestly seems like there may only be a handful of people, even in the most popular shops.

 

I actually haven't done anything (yet), but I see no other way to obtain dream pets - UCs, without cheating. I lack the time and talent to RSing, and I could never accumulate the millions needed to offer a custom to trade for one, and even then they don't even go for customs these days.

 

As stated directly above (2 paragraphs up), there are other viable ways to make nps. Cheating is the easy way out, which is unfortunately very tempting.



(Missed these on the previous page)
 

I cheat to keep up with the competition. I don't live in America, and my internet speed is very slow. Even with Abrosia it's very hard to get some good items, I usually only get 2-3 good ones a day. The country I live in has one of the worst internet connections and they are known for it as well.

 

So the bottom line is, I think that if you ask us, why we cheat, we each have our own reasons... I'm not a psychic or a mind reader, but this really seems to be upsetting you. If it bothers you so much, how on earth do you deal with real life things where not everything is candy and rainbows either?

 

I was on neo for 6 years before I started cheating btw, and do not feel one little bit bad about it.

 

An average restocker doesn't manage, on average, 2-3 good items per day. Does this mean you should ab less, since you're not just keeping up but actually cheating beyond your perceived disadvantage?

As far as me being upset by it - it isn't upsetting me in any profound way, but I'll admit it is a little. I didn't come here being naive and hopeful that I would find candy and rainbows. I'm not here mulling about it and whining because I'm hoping it will make me feel better though. I'm just curious about the motives, curious about where they stand compared to the motives I had for being curious about cheating. I'm finding that many people are more in denial than they'd probably like to admit about how they've had to compromise their morals, and how they are actually doing something harmful.
 

 

I cheat through the bits that are ridiculously time-consuming and require little more than me sitting here hammering away at the same series of keys over and over again. You'll notice the only thing I mentioned was the games not being fun and the plots not being enjoyable to solve*; hardly 'every aspect' of Neopets. I work full time and when I get home, I don't especially like finding out that the best and easiest (legitimate) way to get something I want is to devote all my free time to clicking my mouse (or pushing three keys) X number of times with very little visual or audial feedback and almost no entertainment value (the battledome in particular doesn't even feel like a win-or-lose situation, it just feels like click click click result).

 

I like character design and some small part of me enjoys the childishness of it all, and I'm exactly the type of dork that will play dress-up with my pets until the cows come home. Unfortunately, feeding my dorkiness requires doing things I hate doing when I'm getting paid to do it. I also like having an excuse to come back and see how Codex is doing and how many people I still remember.

 

I also spent almost a year not playing Neopets before this plot started, so there's the answer to your question.

 

*The vast majority of the time. I actually really enjoyed figuring out the bits of the Faeries' Ruin, even though the account I did all that hard work on got frozen later for a stupid score send.

 

I appreciate the response. I don't agree with everything, naturally, but at least you've explained it fully, so thanks for that.



#70 Waser Lave

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 02:42 PM

I'm not sure where you draw your own particular line on benefiting from cheating given that you use our Item Database which is actually powered by people cheating. :/ Maybe you'd be better off sticking to somewhere like Jellyneo for now where it is all candy and rainbows.



#71 Turnip

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 03:07 PM

EggTamer, I don't think I understand what you're trying to do? I thought you were here to hear why some of us here cheat and possibly be understanding and accept our reasoning, but it's pretty clear you're not going to start using said programs and just here to tell us that we're playing a game incorrectly, putting other players at a disadvantage and apparently ruining the game for them. And that isn't true at all! There have been people autobuying and score sending for god knows how long, and not once did the thought of people doing that ruin it for me. I just gave no thought to it and continued playing and having fun. If something as trivial as using programs or scripts on Neopets of all things is really enough to ruin the game for you then I don't know what to say, heh.

 

An average restocker doesn't manage, on average, 2-3 good items per day.

 

I... what? How did you come up with that number? A restocker is capable of getting any number of items a day, depending on their energy and determination :V The number of items they're able to get isn't severely limited just because of people autobuying.



#72 HungryForNoms

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:16 PM

I kind of disagree. I've seen stores empty in seconds in absurdly fast times, and I don't think a bunch of people playing legitimately make that happen every time.

 

My story? Still a legit player, with plans to become illegit in the near future. Played legit for years, probably had such a miserable time RSing because of all the ABers running rampant, but scraped together a set worth many millions over the course of several YEARS. then had everything stolen, and of course TNT refuses to restore anything (despite the fact that those items supposedly have no real world currency value and I'm an old customer with friends on the site to back my integrity).

 

Now I have a job, I'm a grown-up, and I realized I'd like to chill out with my guild every now and then and enjoy neo battles. But am I going to spend hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of hours of free time RSing and playing "legit" to recover what could just as easily be stolen again when I know TNT won't help because they don't give a rat's ass about customer service?

 

No way. My time is too valuable. I'd rather pay someone money for the items and NP and I want and enjoy the rest of my time in peace, or use programs to cheat and restore what I once lost. Frankly I think most of my competition will come from other auto buyers, because frankly RSing just isn't fun. It's incredibly boring, like playing the lottery even with a good connection because of how badly neopets lags when you refresh a lot, and it's not that rewarding even when you are successful. I never felt that great about myself even on a good RSing day because I had to dump so much time into making NP when deep down I knew it would have been more responsible to spend my time doing something creative or constructive.

 

Now? I'm sorry if I use an ABer and it messes up someone's life. The sooner I make them realize that neo is not a game where effort correlates to happiness nor success the better. ABers probably really interfered with my account back when I was RSing every day.

 

In the end, I can't even be that frustrated with them since everything got stolen anyway and TNT didn't care. So if I had made more.. what then? I would have had nicer items for a few months before losing it all.

 

I've started to think that the economy in neopets must run like a giant pyramid where the money flows up to a few on top from tons of low-level players constantly "producing" NP with drudgery like games. Tons of kids play really crappy games that they don't like that much to earn neopoints. Tons of them spend for items in shops for various activities on the site that feed money to people who AB, or people with malls, or just smarter players who know how to trade up. At the top of the game are 3 types of people:

1. Players who have been around forever and have been able to take advantage of major changes in neopets to make tons of money or gain advantages that will never again be available

2. Players who actually have no lives, AND are skillful enough to make lots of NP with their time (tons of players have no life but aren't good enough to even get a good account or make millions, so they just waste tons of time on the site hoping to make it big one day)

3. People who know how to cheat without getting caught, and these people can also make massive fortunes with a minimal time investment, thus enjoying the fun parts of the site without trading their lives to it.

 

TL;DR? Here's why I want to cheat and buy items:

Neopets is a game, play it in the way that gives you the most fun for the time you invest.

Neopets is a company that does not respect it's users, and therefore is not worthy of your respect.

TNT is an administration that does not care about customer service, and I no longer care about following their rules.


Edited by HungryForNoms, 08 March 2013 - 06:33 PM.


#73 Badger

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:03 PM

TL;DR? Here's why I want to cheat and buy items:

Neopets is a game, play it in the way that gives you the most fun for the time you invest.

Neopets is a company that does not respect it's users, and therefore is not worthy of your respect.

TNT is an administration that does not care about customer service, and I no longer care about following their rules.

 

This, so much. Why should players care about being fair when the staff themselves are not fair?

When people get frozen for stupid reasons (or no reason at all) or get hacked and lose everything, does that make them want to play fair?

 

If you, OP, call this immoral, then TNT themselves are extremely immoral for continuously ignoring tickets from ripped off users who have invested lots of time and/or money into the site. They take the players' money, and then thank them by refusing to value the player enough to reimburse the virtual items and points that player earned legitimately and lost thanks to hackers or freeze-happy monitors.

 

How can you expect players to respect the rules or play fairly when the staff is even more corrupt?



#74 Mikali

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:31 PM

I have a 10 year old account and played legitly for about 4 years?  Only managed to make 1.3 million in that time.  After a super long hiatus of 6 years, I came back to the site and found that everything had gotten much more expensive.  For the first couple of days, I played games and tried to follow TDN's guide on earning money.  But it takes A LOT of time to actually get through all the games just to earn 100K, and as a fourth year university student, I can't sit in front of my computer playing all day long.  So I SS and occasionally AoB to earn NPs.  I don't see how this is immoral tbh.  It's a virtual site and game.  Like many of the posters above have said, as long as I'm not scamming or trading things for real currency, I don't see the harm in cheating.



#75 Turkeyducks

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:00 PM

My method for cheating is simple. My main was frozen many years ago for cheating when I wasn't. I figured if TNT was going to delete my hard work without any real proof, I might as well just do it.

 

I think a large percentage of neopet users cheat. That made it harder for the legit users to play the game, so it's kinda like... if you can't beat them, join them.




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