334 replies to this topic

[Dazz]

People taking bait errwhere. Mans a wasteman, just leave it.

[Speedracer]

People taking bait errwhere. Mans a wasteman, just leave it.

I've got nothing better to do atm

[Sweeney]

Social engineering, womens degree, technology runs our communications and psychology. Player status was easy, bitches come get me.

I feel like you're not understanding what "every woman" means.

[Dazz]

I thought every woman = Whitney Houston 

[Ali]

I thought every woman = Whitney Houston 

But also Chaka Khan. Fuck. Bitches be confusing.

 

[Dazz]

But also Chaka Khan. Fuck. Bitches be confusing.

 

So which one are you?

[Ali]

So which one are you?

Think I'm more Chaka, I like to go with the classic y'know?

 

 

In other news:

http://www.theguardi...elsh-university

These men won an equal pay claim today after they were being paid less than women on the same pay grade.

[Tetiel]

--------

I've decided to share a little story for all you here in the hopes that you'll understand where I come from, why I am the way I am, why I believe the things I do, and ultimately what has lead me to being the woman hating piece of shit that I am.

 

I used to run my own business some years ago, unable to find a job and needing money and not wanting to stay in the drug game after a friend of mine was nearly killed over an ounce of loud made me reconsider my alternatives. I found something. I did quite well for myself, was making very fast easy safe money and loving my job, living the dream, I didn't really have time for dating though since my life was my work at the time. Well what I was doing was very stressful, especially towards the end when things truly begun to unravel I found myself ultimately fighting a war against everyone and everything even those who were "on my side", I became a rather cold person, I stopped having friends, all I saw was plus' and minus'. Eventually when things completely feel apart I was devastated, hopes, dreams, years of my work, blood, sweat, and tears, all down the drain because people are ignorant, and those who can't build will destroy what you have out of spite.

 

So once I finally climbed out of my little hole of depression and all that fun stuff, I looked back and I realized that if maybe just maybe I had had one person on my side during all of that things may of been entirely different for me. So I begun dating in the hopes of finding a girl as intelligent, motivated, ambitious, good looking, supportive, caring, reciprocating, etc, etc positive personality traits, as myself.

 

Enter the Atlanta dating scene, as a genuinely nice guy looking for something real, I am immediately discredited, branded a player, told my story is a lie, forced to chase girls only to find out they were immature pieces of shit, ended up wasting a good chunk of my time, oh and not to mention being "rejected" (though not technically but I did view it as such at the time since I didn't understand the game) also ended up making everything I was feeling that much worse.

 

So I took a different alternative, I learned it was easier to "trip" bitches than to "chase" them, and learned that through manipulating and testing them I could easily find out their personality types much quicker than I ever could by trying to get to know them behind all their lies and bullshit.

 

Several years down the line here I am, still failing to see a single one I view as truly "different" from the rest, I treat them like shit, and they love me for it because I am truly "hard to get" I am nothing more than a trophy to them, like I was to begin with.

 

That's the story of Jon Doe.

Cool story, bro, but it sounds like you've become a victim of self-fulfilling prophecy. If you believe that all women are immature pieces of shit, that's the only kind you'll find. Or perhaps I'm the rare special snowflake exception to the rule. I doubt it. I will admit you're amusing the hell out of me, though.

 

Really, you can be with a good woman, but if you're not seeing her for her good traits, you'll only see the worst in her. The same is true for all individuals. If you are being true in your assessment, it deeply saddens me to see such a jaded person. I hope you can find your exception to the rule and that you are able to recognize her for who she really is instead of treating her as you have treated so many.

 

 

On subject: My views are very similar to Ali's. I will add, though, that adolescents that view themselves to be androgynous are much more well adjusted than those who believe they must conform to one standard or the other. There's a reason for that as very few of us truly embrace the standards our society places on what is male and what is female behavior. That's what my feminist beliefs are and I believe that's the true attempt behind the movement - remove the standards of behavior and the separation divide that exists between genders. That's it. In that respect, it's fighting for men, too. Because men should not feel they must conform to their gender's standards either.

[Doomsday]

Seeing as he's suspended and can't answer it'll have to wait for a day, but do you have the same opinion of your mother as being a piece of shit.

Have you thought that the "shitty women" in your life are shitty women because that's the kind of people that you target and that maybe they become "shitty" because of the head games that you play?

[GhostMommy]

They said in my world religion class once that

When your only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail.

 

However, when your tool is the size of a nail, you might as well get hammered.

[Doomsday]

They said in my world religion class once that

When your only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail.

 

However, when your tool is the size of a nail, you might as well get hammered.

I'm not seeing how this is relative to Feminism

[GhostMommy]

I'm not seeing how this is relative to Feminism

 

The first part is from my sociology class.  Successful women are often expected to compete in the workplace by mimicking the manners and mindsets of the MDS.  This is the observation that the world looks like a nail.  The more enlightened mind understands that men and women may bring different skill-sets and mindsets to a team.  We might not follow same procedure and practices as our male counterparts but the mistake is assuming that different is inferior.  No more than a hammer is superior to a paintbrush, different talents, different approaches,  but each capable of function.

 

The second line was a joke that Steph told me in class. Steph makes me laugh, That joke made me laugh.  Feminism means we get to laugh, even if at the expense of a man.

Edited by Mibs, 23 April 2014 - 07:40 PM.

[Frizzle]

.
That's a big problem. If society didn't view women as the weaker sex, men would no longer have to pretend to be stronger.

 

The thing is, women are a weaker sex and history proves that. The fact that in most countries women haven't had the vote for even a hundred years and in some they can't just highlights that. I'm not saying this is acceptable, but these are the facts. Women in comparison are generally worse off and a weaker sex than men. I personally believe the thousands of years of second class citizenships may have something to do with that, but that's another argument.

 

Just an example of using statistics to support an argument, most statistics are misleading. I'm a guy, I'm fully aware of the don't express emotions pressure.

 

 

Oh I'm sorry, am I supposed to use anecdotal experience or pull stuff out of my arse? This is a debate forum, I'm not against criticising a source, but criticising the use of a source is pretty stupid.

 

Well you believe wrong.

This is from wikipedia, but they're citing the Bureau of Labor Statistics directly.
This is a US only statistic, but I find it hard to believe that wages are better for women in the developing world. Perhaps Western Europe (or the UK specifically) has better standards, but your tiny corner of the globe doesn't represent the entirety.

They pay women less because they can. Simple as that. There need be no other reason.

 

Kinda proves my point when the majority of women get paid the same as men. That's why I said "in general" as in the majority of people get paid the same. Our tiny corner of the globe by the way, has an extremely similar economic and population situation and I think it's fair to apply EU standards to most Western Civilisations (things get a bit blurry when you factor in Eastern Asia and South America).

 

It's nice that you don't believe it but that doesn't make it any less true. Here is a German source from not even a month ago. Now it's hard to compare salaries from different people but in another article from the same newspaper, they sent in two resumes for the same job and the only difference was their names (one male and one female). And big surprise, the woman was offered less for the same job.

And why exactly is a female less suited for a high up CEO position?

 

This discrepancy in salaries depending on your gender gets my blood boiling every time. When searching for average salaries because I am currently looking for a job, I was taken aback that very often, I found two different numbers for males and females >_>

 

Again, my point was made that men and women on average, get paid the same. The vast majority of people get paid the same in the vast majority of jobs. Besides, one study of one job application is hardly worth mentioning as well.

 

Completely anecdotal, but I make $4000 less per year than the man who was in my position before me, and I have 10 years experience where he had none whatsoever.

 

Maybe he was better at his job than you? Maybe he was at the job longer so was entitled to increments that you haven't met? Maybe your boss is a dick and doesn't like you. It doesn't automatically mean your boss is sexist though.

77 cents for every dollar a man makes, is the general consensus in the US. It's gone up to 81 cents now, but it still isn't a dollar for every dollar a man makes. You pay women less money, the more money the company can keep for itself, since it doesn't have to use that money for salaries. 

 

Equal Pay Day is in April, the 8th this year, that shows currently how many more days/more time a woman must work to earn the same a man did in the previous year because of wage discrimination. 

 

US Department of Labor on Wage Discrimation: http://www.dol.gov/equalpay/

 

See above.

 

 

Bare in mind that no-ones mention the main thing when it comes to the gender pay gap. Are women worth as much as men? "Of course they are, equality rabble rabble" etc etc.

 

But they aren't, not from an economic point of view anyway. Let's take some key facts into considerations

 

The vast majority of highly professional occupations are male dominated. CEOs, doctors, managers etc are mainly male dominated. This was obviously skewer the pay gap as although it seems unfair to women, men are actually running the organizations and have the skills/experience that deserve to be compensated. I guess someone's point would be to hire more female CEOs, doctors and managers, but this would be positive discrimination would it not? Plus it would have a huge negative impact on the economy.

 

Sports! I know it's a small percentage of the occupation world, but it deserves a mention. Women aren't as good as men biologically when it comes to sports (I'm sure someone will find some data explaining to me Women are better at Norwegian ice Fishing, but fuck you for being pedantic). Men have the ability to be a lot stronger, fast, better equipped and have all the other physical capabilities to be champions at sports. This means they will be better than women, meaning they are worth more, meaning they get paid more. (This is obviously based on the spectator's paying more money for male dominated games compared to female). Just take a look at the pay differences between men and women in Football, it's astronomical because men are better at the role. 

 

Skills/job occupations. Men are more likely than women to take on occupations that require a much more skilled jobs or high paid jobs such as construction and industry type work. There also more prepared to take on roles that require physical exertion or confrontation (door supervisor/armed forces/police/investigation) etc

 

I did also have something to say about women and pregnancy but it's like 5am and I have to be at work soon. So chew on that and I'll be awaiting some replies.

 

 

Off topic: Did you know in the USA, there is no statutory minimum annual leave? How fucked is that? No wonder everyone's fat, stressed and dying early! Makes me glad I have 29 annual leave days on top of public holidays!

 

http://www.dol.gov/d...ation_leave.htm

[luvsmyncis]

The thing is, women are a weaker sex and history proves that. The fact that in most countries women haven't had the vote for even a hundred years and in some they can't just highlights that. I'm not saying this is acceptable, but these are the facts. Women in comparison are generally worse off and a weaker sex than men. I personally believe the thousands of years of second class citizenships may have something to do with that, but that's another argument.

I agree with you. Yes. History proves that women are weaker because of the thousands of years of second class citizenship. This is exactly right. Usually when you don't allow people to reach their full potential, they end up looking weaker and less useful. It's not another argument, it's precisely what feminism is trying to overcome.

You're not wrong about the men in all these occupations, but the REASON they are more likely to take up these jobs is because of the thousands of years you mentioned earlier. I don't know if men are better at the roles. I'm just USED to men being in those roles, but just because we're used to it, that doesn't make it RIGHT.
 

Women aren't as good as men biologically when it comes to sports

I could crush your head between my thighs.

 

Yes, women tend to be shorter or smaller than men. Certainly, women are at a physical disadvantage when pitted against professional men in the same sport, but female athletes really can be superb in their own league. Again, we're USED to watching only men's sports. Women's sports don't get as much coverage (except at the Olympics). It's hard to build a huge fan base when you're on ESPN8. But honestly when it comes to sports I only watch basketball and pro-wrestling. Women's basketball is weird to me because they let the women play with a smaller ball, but didn't lower the rims so they can dunk it and have more thrilling plays.. and women's wrestling only gets 5 minutes every week to showcase talent so they tend to focus on petty storylines instead of action. Trust me. We all want to see the action.

 

Would you look at that.

[NapisaurusRex]

Read my story I just posted.

It didn't have your age.

[Doomsday]

The thing is, women are a weaker sex and history proves that. The fact that in most countries women haven't had the vote for even a hundred years and in some they can't just highlights that. I'm not saying this is acceptable, but these are the facts. Women in comparison are generally worse off and a weaker sex than men. I personally believe the thousands of years of second class citizenships may have something to do with that, but that's another argument.

Pretty sure women got the right to vote before black people did. So are you insinuating because of baseless tradition/laws that black people are significantly more inferior to women?

[Ali]

Pretty sure women got the right to vote before black people did. So are you insinuating because of baseless tradition/laws that black people are significantly more inferior to women?

He's in the UK where that isn't true for a start.

[Doomsday]

He's in the UK where that isn't true for a start.

The world involving women is much bigger than the UK so he can't be ignorant about the world if he wants to make statements like he has. I live in Australia where our top of government is still the British monarch. Women were given full right to vote in various states from 1895-1905 and aboriginal (blacks) weren't given full rights to vote until 1967.

[rapmasterme]

Honestly I feel feminism in America is stupid. The wage gap has been shown to be mostly due to other circumstances. Which makes sense, because it was real, any corporation that wanted to make money would just hire women and increase productivity on the cheap. Media representations of women are obviously sexualized, but even more than that, in movies they are basically not people. Most women don't talk to each other in movies, and if they do they just talk about male characters. But I think feminism in America tends to conflate real issues like media portrayals, with issues that don't exist (a strange sense that patriarchy is everywhere, the wage gap, "boys clubs," etc). It makes sense, because if their weren't as many imagined issues, it would be harder to get followers, as it would not seem as dire a situation, but in the end people want to be associated less and less with feminism.

 

Also stuff like middle eastern women rights is important. But Feminism in America has no influences in those areas, and they don't seem to be trying to help these people. Mostly it feels like the middle-class white girl struggle, which is pretty ironic.

 

 

Not sure if the wage gap not existing is  generally common knowledge so here is a government study on it:

 

http://www.consad.co...inal Report.pdf

Edited by rapmasterme, 24 April 2014 - 09:41 PM.

[Tetiel]

...wat. Look at the sheer amount of people who refused to vote for Hilary Clinton on the basis that she would be PMSing in the oval office. And some were dead serious. That alone is reason enough to keep the feminist movement going strong. 

 

Feminism is not just about wages. It goes so much deeper than that. There are criminal organizations that have moved towards trafficking women in America instead of guns or drugs because you can sell a woman over and over and over again. The current legislature in many states treats many of the victims as criminals even though it is coerced prostitution. The women have no choice. That is a feminist cause. Domestic Violence is an extremely serious issue for both men and women. That is a feminist cause. College campus rape cases are treated as a regular occurrence and there is a high incidence of victim blaming. That is a feminist cause. So you know, it's really great that you feel that it's stupid to try to help victims of domestic violence, rape, and human trafficking, but to me, it's a big freaking deal.

[rapmasterme]

...wat. Look at the sheer amount of people who refused to vote for Hilary Clinton on the basis that she would be PMSing in the oval office. And some were dead serious. That alone is reason enough to keep the feminist movement going strong. 

 

Feminism is not just about wages. It goes so much deeper than that. There are criminal organizations that have moved towards trafficking women in America instead of guns or drugs because you can sell a woman over and over and over again. The current legislature in many states treats many of the victims as criminals even though it is coerced prostitution. The women have no choice. That is a feminist cause. Domestic Violence is an extremely serious issue for both men and women. That is a feminist cause. College campus rape cases are treated as a regular occurrence and there is a high incidence of victim blaming. That is a feminist cause. So you know, it's really great that you feel that it's stupid to try to help victims of domestic violence, rape, and human trafficking, but to me, it's a big freaking deal.

I think you are right about these issues being important. I was making the statement that modern feminism tends to mix real issues and non-real issues and pretend that the real issues somehow add credibility to issues such as the wage gap. I do agree though that my wording was dismissive.

[Sweeney]

@rapmasterme, did you actually read the conclusions of the report you posted?

It assigns between 65 and 75% of the "raw gender wage gap" to other factors, and is unable to account for up to a 7.1% difference in wage. In America, that can easily be thousands of dollars a year.

Here's the funny thing, though. The report factors out the fact that women are more likely to hold part-time jobs, the fact that women are more likely to leave careers to raise children, and the fact that women, apparently, prefer family-friendly workplaces.
But, um, those things are predominantly down to societal perceptions of "the place of women", which is something that feminism attempts to address. The report blames "individual choices" as though such choices are made in a vacuum, without social pressures or any kind of cultural influence.

Nobody is saying that the gender wage gap is entirely down to old boys clubs promoting their buddies at international conglomerates, although that is certainly a part of the problem. People trying to present it that way, are either ignorant, or misrepresenting the argument in order to further their own agenda.

[rapmasterme]

@rapmasterme, did you actually read the conclusions of the report you posted?

It assigns between 65 and 75% of the "raw gender wage gap" to other factors, and is unable to account for up to a 7.1% difference in wage. In America, that can easily be thousands of dollars a year.

Here's the funny thing, though. The report factors out the fact that women are more likely to hold part-time jobs, the fact that women are more likely to leave careers to raise children, and the fact that women, apparently, prefer family-friendly workplaces.
But, um, those things are predominantly down to societal perceptions of "the place of women", which is something that feminism attempts to address. The report blames "individual choices" as though such choices are made in a vacuum, without social pressures or any kind of cultural influence.

Nobody is saying that the gender wage gap is entirely down to old boys clubs promoting their buddies at international conglomerates, although that is certainly a part of the problem. People trying to present it that way, are either ignorant, or misrepresenting the argument in order to further their own agenda.

 

the point of the wage gap thing is that the real wage gap and the perceived wage gap are very different, Also the real wage gap may be the result of different factors than discrimination. It is important to realize that just because an "unexplained gap" exists does not mean it is necessarily due to discrimination, as the study points out.

 

Also as far as women leaving the workforce to have children, that is something women do have control over, nobody forces them to do it, so to blame it on society feels like a bit of a reach, although I can see how people would feel pressured to fulfill gender roles, it does come down to a choice. If one chooses to take time out of the workforce, then one should not complain about making less money. Women who don't drop out of the work force on average make more then men, so employers are not so much discriminating against women, but punishing them for choices they made. 

 

If the Wall Street Journal is credible enough:

http://online.wsj.co...0770831192.html

 

Also your second to last sentence contradicts itself so I dont quite know how to answer your concern. You say nobody says that it is a problem, but you are saying it is a problem. 

[Sweeney]

the point of the wage gap thing is that the real wage gap and the perceived wage gap are very different, Also the real wage gap may be the result of different factors than discrimination. It is important to realize that just because an "unexplained gap" exists does not mean it is necessarily due to discrimination, as the study points out.

That is not what your report says.
 

Also as far as women leaving the workforce to have children, that is something women do have control over, nobody forces them to do it, so to blame it on society feels like a bit of a reach, although I can see how people would feel pressured to fulfill gender roles, it does come down to a choice. If one chooses to take time out of the workforce, then one should not complain about making less money. Women who don't drop out of the work force on average make more then men, so employers are not so much discriminating against women, but punishing them for choices they made.

Ah yes. A couple decides to have children, forcing the woman to take maternity leave, and forcing the man to take paternity leave... Woah, wait. No. That's not how it happens at all.
Women are stunted in their career path because of their potential choice to have children, for a start, because they might one day take maternity leave - not necessarily because they have taken it.
Can you explain why a woman has to choose between having a child and furthering her career, when a man does not have to make that choice?
 

If the Wall Street Journal is credible enough:
http://online.wsj.co...0770831192.html

This link does not not back up the final sentence of your last paragraph, if that was your intent. I mean, it's great that women aged 18-22 in metropolitan areas are outearning men aged 18-22 in metropolitan areas... But it does not mean that "Women who don't drop out of the work force on average make more then men".

Worth noting also that that WSJ article states the following:
"At every education level, from high-school dropouts to Ph.D.s, women continue to earn less than their male peers."

Is the WSJ credible enough?
 

Also your second to last sentence contradicts itself so I dont quite know how to answer your concern. You say nobody says that it is a problem, but you are saying it is a problem.

Good lord. I didn't say that "nobody says [old boys' clubs are] a problem", I said that nobody says they are the entirety of the problem - which is the argument that your original report claims to refute. I wonder if there were any women on the committee that assembled that report.

[Frizzle]

Can you explain why a woman has to choose between having a child and furthering her career, when a man does not have to make that choice?

Billions of women have both had a career and a child, it's not exactly impossible. Yes their career may be dented in comparison to a mans if they decide to have a child, but a man doesn't take two years off full pay and leave others to pick up the work.