1730 replies to this topic

[Raui]

The universe is too fine tuned to be down to chance. Most of the greatest scientists humanity has ever seen have subscribed to the idea of a creator including Nicholas Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, Nikola Tesla, Albert Einstein, Gregor Mendel, Max Planck and Lord Kelvin. All of these scientists have had a great impact on our everyday lives and our understanding of the universe and all believe in creation.

I believe that when you delve enough into philosophy and really think about it there is no other answer than we are created. I am not going to say by what, simply because I don't know. The universe is too finely tuned to allow the idea of no creator to even enter our heads. For example alpha, or the fine structure constant which is approx. 1/137, any bigger or smaller and the atoms our bodies are made of wouldn't stick together or would break under the force.

Many of the most brilliant minds have said that mental thought comes from god. That is; our consciousness comes from god. An example of this is a scientist who I am very familiar with, Nikola Tesla. He stated "The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concetrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power". Basically what he is saying that when we know god in us we are god, or at least that is my interpretation of it. Keeping on Nikola Tesla as I know a lot of his background, he was a Christian. He would reference to god in many many different situations.

Most of you would be more familiar with the names Albert Einstein and Max Planck. Both of these brilliant men have influenced the 20th/21st century a great deal and both subscribed to a creator. It is also interesting to look at modern day quantum physics. Especially concerning the zero point field and the quantum vacuum which is showing that all things are indeed connected. Even consciousness is starting to be spoken about in physics! Which brings me to the rough outline of my god. My god is in fact backed up with science! My idea of god is that god is the collective consciousness.

This idea of god came to me in a dream in which I saw a filament of light extending from my head into this massive cloud of light. Everyone around me was connected as well. Every mental thought came from this 'light cloud' and entered our heads where a message was subsequently reflected back. My thoughts were also faintly sent to everyone else and their thoughts to me. It was a very eye opening dream because at the time of having this dream I was a very prominent atheist and at the time didn't really see any meaning to the dream other than it being very interesting. I have since thought about the dream to be my awakening to allow me to visualize god.

So basically what I am trying to say is that we are all god. The more aware we are of this fact the more, as Nikola Tesla said, we tune into this great power. I don't like calling the creator god however. I prefer to call 'god' the creator as god is usually used in Christian terms. I don't subscribe myself to one religion I just take what I think is important out of each to formulate my existence.

[Devilfish]

I understandyour argument, but it falls flat on two points:

You seem to ipmly that all these great names you mention became great in their respective fields because they believed in creation. There is no evidence of that. Many great thinkers were in fact secular or atheist. There is no direct correlation.

Besides that, it's not as simple as believing or not believing. One name you mention is Copernicus and while he did uphold the beliefs of the time, this was standard practise in those days and says little to nothing about his actual beliefs. All these great men need to be examined in their respective timeframes as well as based on their accomplishments. There are too many factors to concider to contribute their success to their religious beliefs. Nothing at all in the history of everything supports that idea.

Other than that, who am I to argue

[Raui]

I'm not arguing that their belief in a creator made them top of their field although I know one in particular who formulated his theories of the abstract descriptions within the bible but that's another story. I could argue one point though; I'm not too sure how familiar you are with scientists back in earlier centuries however I can comfortably say that no group of scientists have contributed more to our understanding of science than the ones I've listed who were all religious and I could add a lot more to the list.

The point I was trying to make is that science is starting to adapt religious views to a certain extent. I believe less scientists have adapted to a religion since the idea of a static aether was truncated from science however quantum physics has adapted the existence of a dynamic aether in which manifests itself quite substantially when there is some kind of change taking place. Again I'm not sure on how scientifically competent you are however think inertia for an example. I think a spiritual uplifting will occur sometime in the next 100 years. More than likely in the next 50. It will come from quantum physics and its investigations into consciousness. This will be when humanity knows of its interconnectedness with everyone else and the rest of the universe. This idea has been around for a very long time. American Indians are an excellent example of this.

[Devilfish]

I could argue one point though; I'm not too sure how familiar you are with scientists back in earlier centuries however I can comfortably say that no group of scientists have contributed more to our understanding of science than the ones I've listed who were all religious and I could add a lot more to the list.

Yeah, I know, and that's exactly what I'm saying. Until recently, up to the enlightenment and far beyond, Christinity was the standard. People who were otherwise inclined, philosophically, were not heard, silenced or, in the worst case and depending on the time and place, killed. Freedom of religion is, historically speaking, extremly modern.

Also, science up until recently was a lot less fragmented and complicated than it is now. It was much easier for people outside the scientific community to understand and debate. These days science has so many fields with so many obscure and complicated specialisations, it's almost impossible for non-professionals to understand new breakthroughs and recognise their importance.

So, it's easier to recognise Copernicus as a genius (his breakthroughs are easier to understand) than it is to do the same for a modern scientist who makes an enormous breakthrough that you and me can't even comprehend. Since these 'easy to understand' discoveries were made before and around the enlightenment, the majority of these thinkers and scientists were believers. Because that's the way things were.

Simply put, there were more scientists in the 'Christian era' (spannin many, many centuries) than there are in the 'secular era' (a couple of decades, if that). I can provide a huge list of breakthroughs and discoveries made by atheists. The length of these lists doesn't mean anything at all.

The point I was trying to make is that science is starting to adapt religious views to a certain extent. I believe less scientists have adapted to a religion since the idea of a static aether was truncated from science however quantum physics has adapted the existence of a dynamic aether in which manifests itself quite substantially when there is some kind of change taking place. Again I'm not sure on how scientifically competent you are however think inertia for an example. I think a spiritual uplifting will occur sometime in the next 100 years. More than likely in the next 50. It will come from quantum physics and its investigations into consciousness. This will be when humanity knows of its interconnectedness with everyone else and the rest of the universe. This idea has been around for a very long time. American Indians are an excellent example of this.

Well, I do understand what you believe. I'm more interested in why. Why 100 (or 50) years? Why not 20? Or 2000? What socialogical evidence to you see for that? How would humnity, fractured as it is, suddenly become 'uplifted'? Why will they accept this scientific discoveries when most of us don't give much importance to this in our daily lives?
And how does it change the way you, as an indicidual, act and feel on a day to day basis?

I'm sorry, but it just looks like a huge jumble of wishes. I would really like for what you say to happen, but nothing at all points to the fact that it will, ever. It goes against human nature in the biggest way. Right now it sounds like a jumble of facts and philosophies throw together to create something you like. Which is fine, great even, it's what humans do.

In the end, I'd like to stick with my idea that science simply isn't 'done'. There's more discoveries on the way. Whether people like you and me will be able to comprehend them without 3 Ph.D's and a lifetime of study is another matter.

[outsidedream86]

I believe that when you delve enough into philosophy and really think about it there is no other answer than we are created. I am not going to say by what, simply because I don't know. The universe is too finely tuned to allow the idea of no creator to even enter our heads. For example alpha, or the fine structure constant which is approx. 1/137, any bigger or smaller and the atoms our bodies are made of wouldn't stick together or would break under the force.

Your argument is called the Anthropic Principle. The argument is assuming that the universal constants can be "tuned", and if anything was slightly different then our universe would have developed so that life wouldn’t exist. This is seems to imply that life, more specifically human life, is the end-game final goal of the universe. We see that the universe is a perfect fit for us not because it was made for life but because life has developed to exist in this universe.

Tuning implies that our universal constants can be changed, but we have seen no evidence of a change. Hypothetically a creator could have tuned them to be this way before time began, then started the clock ticking, but there is no way to demonstrate that. Yes, if alpha was 1/136 instead of 1/137 atoms would break apart. But if the universe had different constants it isn't necessarily true that a universe (or life) couldn't exist. There would just be different atom-like things and different molecule-like things floating around and forming different compound-like things. Would life arise in these different conditions? Who knows. Hypothetically there could be an infinity of universes, each with their own constants--some could be filled with absolutely nothing, and there would be nothing intelligent there to contemplate its own existence and therefore it would be irrelevant. It just might be that our universe was the only one with the right combination to allow life to form, and it only matters because our universe has life intelligent enough to contemplate it. I'm just speculating here--as far as I know we haven't found evidence for other universes and likely will not be able to since they would exist outside our space-time.

This is where theism and atheism break apart. Thesis say, I don't know how it happened, therefore God/creator did it. Atheists say, I don't know how it happened. It's kind of like the big bang--we know that the universe exists and we know, based on scientific study, what happened right up until Planck's time. But before that nobody knows, and we may never know. Therefore I personally won't make assumptions about what happened before because I just don't know.

[Raui]

Devilfish,
Point taken. The 'why' behind my theory lies in the fact that consciousness is being more and more incorporated into science. It is true that people don't really follow science and don't care about theories but something like this would be big. Think of the LHC and all the panic that caused when they started it up, OH NOES END OF THE WORLD. My point is when something is going to have a huge impact on their lives they do listen and react. Just accepting that we are all connected and all our consciousnesses are as well is not going to be the spiritual awakening. It is going to be technologies that come from it. Quantum physicists have accepted it. Soon physics in general will accept it and from there it will permeate though the population. That's the why, it's only based on observation but none the less just think of how quickly some theories once generally accepted had an extreme impact on our ancestors lives. For example steam engine then electricity. These all just sprang up rather quickly and impacted the public equally as quick.

Outsidedream,
I understand your point about the infinite universes and such like. The topic of alternate universes is a very active one in mainstream science at the moment. If there are an infinite amount of universes the question rolls down to how were they made? God is a very narrow term, hence why I don't like to use it. The creator isn't as narrow term. The creator could be the big bang it could be some kind of being or it could be something which is beyond our imagination.

[Insanity]

To believe in God is to believe in Creation.

http://ims.truepath.com/atheist.html

I love that little link.

[Devilfish]

To believe in God is to believe in Creation.

Yeah, a platitude is fine too.

[Joanna]

I grew up a Christian. My parents made me their perfect little jesus pet. But recently I had an epiphany....
It is proven that having homosexual feelings is a mental thing. I.E. there is a, lets calll it a "defect", even though it is NOT AT ALL a bad thing, that makes you have homosexual tendencies, and makes men attracted to men, and women attracted to women. There are chemical imbalances that are different than the ones in a straight persons brain. So, it is not a choice to be a homosexual.


Therefore, if God created man, he created the homosexual, because he let these chemical imbalances happen. Why would a God that "loves everyone" create an entire population of people that he decided can't be saved. He created them the way they are.... yet they can't got to heaven.... because... they were made the way they are.

It is either that.... or a bunch of racist, sexist mother fuckkers wrote the Bible because they were exactly that- racist, sexist mother fuckers.

To believe in God is to believe in Creation.

http://ims.truepath.com/atheist.html

I love that little link.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever laid my eyes on.

try this one. This one makes intelligent observations, not stupid ones.
http://atheistblogge...atheist-quotes/




With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. – Steven Weinberg


The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. – Richard Dawkins


I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.– Stephen Roberts


You do not need the Bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate.– Richard A. Weatherwax


I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. – Mark Twain




Lol I probably shouldn't copy and paste the whole article. Go and read it.

Edited by jsteinberg, 12 January 2010 - 05:21 AM.

[Sweeney]

To believe in God is to believe in Creation.

http://ims.truepath.com/atheist.html

I love that little link.

If I thought for a minute that you had both the intent to listen to a reply, and the intelligence to understand one, I'd provide you with a comprehensive deconstruction of all the shit listed on that page.

As you take it at face value in the first place, though, I don't believe you have either of those things.

[Map]

I grew up a Christian. My parents made me their perfect little jesus pet. But recently I had an epiphany....
It is proven that having homosexual feelings is a mental thing. I.E. there is a, lets calll it a "defect", even though it is NOT AT ALL a bad thing, that makes you have homosexual tendencies, and makes men attracted to men, and women attracted to women. There are chemical imbalances that are different than the ones in a straight persons brain. So, it is not a choice to be a homosexual.


Therefore, if God created man, he created the homosexual, because he let these chemical imbalances happen. Why would a God that "loves everyone" create an entire population of people that he decided can't be saved. He created them the way they are.... yet they can't got to heaven.... because... they were made the way they are.

It is either that.... or a bunch of racist, sexist mother fuckkers wrote the Bible because they were exactly that- racist, sexist mother fuckers.

Just to play devil's advocate, it's interesting trying to argue faith. How do you argue something that isn't physical? It's like trying to argue how someone feels -- almost.

I believe to my knowledge, God did not 'create' the homosexual, rather He let his creation be free. He let his creation make their own decisions. I believe the bible said it was wrong, but I think from a biology standpoint, Man & Woman were designed physically to be with each other (right?). I think that's the point the bible was trying to make.

If God created the homosexual, and homosexuality isn't supposed to exist if God existed, so therefore God is either a jerk, or he doesn't exist. But think of it this way. If God gave us freewill or options, then He's letting us make our own decisions. Otherwise, we would be on a very tight leash and we would be perfect & robotic.

Also i'm curious. I wonder where people get 'if you are a homosexual, you are not saved'. I've actually seen alot of 'Gay Christians', and I want to support what they say:

Have any of you died and gone to meet God and have him tell you that you can't get in? It's God's job to judge, so it's not up to us who gets into Heaven, and who doesn't.

Don't get me wrong. Just was curious and it seems like this thread is all "No", so for the sake of further argument what is your response to that?

[Joanna]

I agree to a point. Except that it has been proven that being a homosexual is NOT a choice. That is my point.


In the Bible homosexuality is a sin. And in order to get into heaven you have to "repent" of your sins, he made it impossible for gay people. Like I described before it is a sort of "defect". Man and Woman were obviously created to be together, like you said before, but these gay people are made differently. Its like a child who is born with Down Syndrome or something (I'm not comparing homosexuality to down syndrome I'm just trying to come up with a drastic example of people who are born different because of imbalances). There is some chemical imbalance in their body that makes them that way. God wouldn't refuse a person with Down Syndrome into heaven if they acted like a true christian. But he would refuse a gay person if they did not repent of that singular sin- being who they are. Even if they were a perfect christian their WHOLE lives... being who they are is a sin.

He let an entire population of people be born with this imbalance...and then made what they are unforgivable.

I mean, if someone believes that strongly that being who they are wont get them into heaven then it is a sad realization to give up something so strong within them... to go to a God that does not accept the way HE created them.

I have met a lot of gay "christians" too and I don't really understand their logic. If repenting from sin is something you need to do , besides accepting jesus and all the rest that goes with it, and they still choose to sin by accepting the fact that they are gay and acting on it- that is not repenting from sin. It is swimming in sin. In order to repent they have to force themselves to be something they're not. They still go to a God that tells them who they are is wrong. That is why I don't understand them. Their faith is blind... I didn't know that being blind was a good thing.

It hurts me that God wont bring something he created to heaven with him, yet he says he loves everyone.

[luvsmyncis]

Don't get me wrong. Just was curious and it seems like this thread is all "No", so for the sake of further argument what is your response to that?

Well, I say...

[Joanna]

Well, I say...

Hahah. That is fantastic!

[Map]

I agree to a point. Except that it has been proven that being a homosexual is NOT a choice. That is my point.

In the Bible homosexuality is a sin. And in order to get into heaven you have to "repent" of your sins, he made it impossible for gay people. Like I described before it is a sort of "defect". Man and Woman were obviously created to be together, like you said before, but these gay people are made differently. Its like a child who is born with Down Syndrome or something (I'm not comparing homosexuality to down syndrome I'm just trying to come up with a drastic example of people who are born different because of imbalances). There is some chemical imbalance in their body that makes them that way. God wouldn't refuse a person with Down Syndrome into heaven if they acted like a true christian. But he would refuse a gay person if they did not repent of that singular sin- being who they are. Even if they were a perfect christian their WHOLE lives... being who they are is a sin.

He let an entire population of people be born with this imbalance...and then made what they are unforgivable.

See that's why I'm puzzled. How do you know he let an entire population of people to just die? Did God come down himself to tell you that homosexuality is a no-no, yet murderers, thieves, rapists, and others are allowed into Heaven?

I think a really big point to the homosexuality debate is that nobody really knows for sure, but honestly, I'm pretty sure God says that "All sin is equal". If rapists, murderers, thieves, prostitutes, tax collectors can get into Heaven, and all sin is equal, I'm pretty sure this 'homosexuality sin' is let into heaven as well.

I personally still can't see the science of being born, or the gene-reasoning for homosexuality, but honestly how am I supposed to know for sure? I wasn't around when the human body evolved, or the human body was created... BUT:

I can't see how physical make-up of a body should hinder a spiritual relationship with God ... so in other words to say, how does physicality of the body block a spiritual relationship? -- I adopted the view if Men or women get turned on by a woman or man, which I'm sure happens, how then do leaders and people of a congregation have a spiritual relationship if they are physically aroused by attraction =o? That's all physical, isn't it?

Well, I say...

I wish I had cotton candy .

Edited by annabeth, 12 January 2010 - 08:48 AM.

[Joanna]

It is a genetic defect.


And to get into heaven you have to repent of sin.

If a rapist repents and is a christian- he gets in.
If a murderer repents and is a christian- he gets in.
If a gay person repents and is a christain- he gets in.

But being gay is a genetic defect! Its like telling someone with diabetes, "Repent of your diabetes, because having diabetes is a sin, and you can get into heaven."
How impossible is that?
Of course Im not talking about the diabetes that can be cured by exercise and weight loss, Im talking about the kind you cant get rid of because its genetic.
It is in you... forever.

Im just saying that it is nearly impossible for these people.

[Map]

It is a genetic defect.


And to get into heaven you have to repent of sin.

If a rapist repents and is a christian- he gets in.
If a murderer repents and is a christian- he gets in.
If a gay person repents and is a christain- he gets in.

But being gay is a genetic defect! Its like telling someone with diabetes, "Repent of your diabetes, because having diabetes is a sin, and you can get into heaven."
How impossible is that?
Of course Im not talking about the diabetes that can be cured by exercise and weight loss, Im talking about the kind you cant get rid of because its genetic.
It is in you... forever.

Im just saying that it is nearly impossible for these people.

If all sin is equal, then its nearly impossible for everyone to get into Heaven, right? Every person's struggle through life is different. It just so happens that apprently if you're a homosexual, people hate -- which is dumb. It isn't our job to judge or convict what is a sin or not... I think our only job in this world is to love.

Alot of things in this world are sin, and there's no way we could ever be perfect. I think that's why there's the Jesus link because if we are drowning with sin, how could someone perfect ever come to us? If we ever met God, I believe that it was said we would evaporate into nothing -- I always envision someone trying to meet Mr. Sun. Jesus came down, and I'm very intrigued by this part, through the worst business method possible. [This is another conversation, if you would like to hear it, you could PM me] but essentially Jesus came down through the worst possible places, which is why people didn't accept him. People thought he would just rain down from Heaven with a bajillion angels and streaming white lights with a huge sign that says "BELIEVE ME" -- but he didn't. But anyways, short story shortened: He's the link so that we could have a relationship.

*shrug* I always find these kind of discussions interesting, and since i've read a million of them these are the points that really caught my interest when I started exploring anyways.

[Joanna]

If all sin is equal, then its nearly impossible for everyone to get into Heaven, right? Every person's struggle through life is different. It just so happens that apprently if you're a homosexual, people hate -- which is dumb. It isn't our job to judge or convict what is a sin or not... I think our only job in this world is to love.

I COMPLETELY agree.

[Mr. Hobo]

If I thought for a minute that you had both the intent to listen to a reply, and the intelligence to understand one, I'd provide you with a comprehensive deconstruction of all the shit listed on that page.

As you take it at face value in the first place, though, I don't believe you have either of those things.

What I find lulzy is that the banana shows how evolution works and that due to selective breeding it has changed immensely (and for the better)

Do you know of any building that didn't have a builder?

Cave says hai

But think of it this way. If God gave us freewill or options, then He's letting us make our own decisions. Otherwise, we would be on a very tight leash and we would be perfect & robotic.

But the thing is, if God know alls/created every little detail he would have known exactly what would happen. Right know like what, 1/6th of people are Christians, and lets say 100% of them are devout (lololol) and God wants us to be Christian. That's still 80+% of his children whom he loves dearly not going to heaven. Seems like a pretty high failure rate for an all powerful all knowing being

Also i'm curious. I wonder where people get 'if you are a homosexual, you are not saved'. I've actually seen alot of 'Gay Christians', and I want to support what they say:

I think it's said 2 times in the Bible. Once in Leviticus, saying like a man shouldn't lie with another man like he lies with a women, but that's right around the part where god says don't eat pork/shellfish and has a bunch of crazy combinations of sacrifices women should do after giving birth or they will be unclean and is only really payed attention to by Jews. But it's commonly quoted by Christians, lol hypocrisy.

[Map]

But the thing is, if God know alls/created every little detail he would have known exactly what would happen. Right know like what, 1/6th of people are Christians, and lets say 100% of them are devout (lololol) and God wants us to be Christian. That's still 80+% of his children whom he loves dearly not going to heaven. Seems like a pretty high failure rate for an all powerful all knowing being

I think it's said 2 times in the Bible. Once in Leviticus, saying like a man shouldn't lie with another man like he lies with a women, but that's right around the part where god says don't eat pork/shellfish and has a bunch of crazy combinations of sacrifices women should do after giving birth or they will be unclean and is only really payed attention to by Jews. But it's commonly quoted by Christians, lol hypocrisy.

Name one person thats alive today who isn't a hypocrite.

That's why I argue for the reason why it isn't our job to judge, or to tell who goes into Heaven or not. Are we saying we're God here? How do we know who goes into heaven or not? None of us have died, seen it, and can't revive ourselves and be like 'hay guys I saw itz.'

Yes. True. It says in the bible. Doesn't it also say do not steal, do not murder, etc. etc. etc? Like I said before, I believe from Romans(?) that it says all sin is equal.

And just for the sake of debate. If you were God, would you want something that is living that you created, robotic and no freewill what so ever? If you loved that creation you made, you would want to control every thought, every movement, every action, every waking and sleeping moment of your creation? I somehow doubt it .

Regarding the 'fail-rate', well like I said before. It's up to you to believe or not. But I think it's mentioned somewhere that once you know, it's your responsability and you can't feign ignorance when that day comes.

Shrug. What if God didn't exist? I think C.S. Lewis was the one who said that even if he didn't exist, and there's no Heaven, no Hell, that at least we could say that we helped people get through hard times, helped heal brokenness that is always going to be in the world, or could say we lived 'good' lives [whatever that means]!

Edited by annabeth, 12 January 2010 - 12:29 PM.

[Mr. Hobo]

How do we know who goes into heaven or not?

God gave us a rule book

And just for the sake of debate. If you were God, would you want something that is living that you created, robotic and no freewill what so ever? If you loved that creation you made, you would want to control every thought, every movement, every action, every waking and sleeping moment of your creation? I somehow doubt it

How could I possibly imagine what God wants. To say it would be like an ant wondering what we want would be an understatement

Regarding the 'fail-rate', well like I said before. It's up to you to believe or not. But I think it's mentioned somewhere that once you know, it's your responsability and you can't feign ignorance when that day comes.

But God created these exact circumstances fully knowing what would come of them. If I gave a heroine junky some heroine but told him not to shoot up, who's fault is it once he shoots up (even in this example there's a possibility of him rejecting it, while god has 100% certainty)?

Shrug. What if God didn't exist? I think C.S. Lewis was the one who said that even if he didn't exist, and there's no Heaven, no Hell, that at least we could say that we helped people get through hard times, helped heal brokenness that is always going to be in the world, or could say we lived 'good' lives [whatever that means]!

Yup. Not like religion has led to tons of violence, intolerance, indoctrination, hindered scientific progress, gave people an excuse not the upset social order etc.

[Map]

- God gave us a rule book

- How could I possibly imagine what God wants. To say it would be like an ant wondering what we want would be an understatement

- But God created these exact circumstances fully knowing what would come of them. If I gave a heroine junky some heroine but told him not to shoot up, who's fault is it once he shoots up (even in this example there's a possibility of him rejecting it, while god has 100% certainty)?

- Yup. Not like religion has led to tons of violence, intolerance, indoctrination, hindered scientific progress, gave people an excuse not the upset social order etc.

God gave us a rule book? Or a guidebook. 'cause if it was a rule book then I think everyone in the world is going to hell, right now. Actually once the bible came out, then this world would be gone probably in the next second when the bible came out, no?

Right. That's what i'm saying, why would God want to control us? Does he? Would he? Who knows for sure.

I still think there's free-choice. If you believe, or if you don't that is your decision, hence why I asked the question if you were God, what would you do. He knows 100%, but I'm kind of confused on how people are so sure that throughout their life (including their future) that they won't see something that is indescribable, with no scientific explanation that they must wonder that may, or may not be a God out there. I wonder how those people predict their future that now they won't believe, but the future might be open to new possibilities; I mean, unless that person is just dead-set for the next 40? 50? years.

I took your last point without sarcasm, and then I implemented the sarcasm in.

I'm not sure what you want me to say to that... Apologize for religion? . It seems that though you have alot of 'evidence', or 'facts', for being against religion. I wonder if you have any information about if it's done good in the world, or to people, etc.

Edit: I guess I got some of my answer on my last sentence from just digging way back, but maybe you have new points so I'm just going to see if you respond or not xD.

Edited by annabeth, 12 January 2010 - 01:50 PM.

[Joanna]

Yup. Not like religion has led to tons of violence, intolerance, indoctrination, hindered scientific progress, gave people an excuse not the upset social order etc.

^^^This is a GREAT point.



You do not need the Bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate. – Richard A. Weatherwax
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. – Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney
Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea. – Anonymous
History teaches us that no other cause has brought more death than the word of god. – Giulian Buzila
What has been Christianity’s fruits? Superstition, Bigotry and Persecution. – James Madison
The Bible – A Fairytale book of rules brainwashing millions. Obliviously used to help create war, kill, hate, judge and discriminate. – Anonymous

[Map]

^^^This is a GREAT point. You do not need the Bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate. – Richard A. Weatherwax Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. – Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea. – Anonymous History teaches us that no other cause has brought more death than the word of god. – Giulian Buzila What has been Christianity’s fruits? Superstition, Bigotry and Persecution. – James Madison The Bible – A Fairytale book of rules brainwashing millions. Obliviously used to help create war, kill, hate, judge and discriminate. – Anonymous

Those are nice quotes, but pretty one-sided for a debate. I would express my thoughts on those but I'm leaving work! Perhaps another time then.

Just parting with a question, what are the opposites of those questions? I'm pretty sure you can't just say religion has only brought bad and suffering and death and mass murders. That's one side, so what's the otherside? Did it bring anything good? Did it ever help people? Or religion only brought all of the above, from those quotes?

[Joanna]

Im not saying it only brought those things. Religion does wonderful things for some people, and others not so much. I was just using those quotes that I came across to illustrate my point.