1730 replies to this topic

[Mr. Hobo]

God gave us a rule book? Or a guidebook. 'cause if it was a rule book then I think everyone in the world is going to hell, right now. Actually once the bible came out, then this world would be gone probably in the next second when the bible came out, no?

Pretty sure the bible is a book of rules

. It seems that though you have alot of 'evidence', or 'facts', for being against religion. I wonder if you have any information about if it's done good in the world, or to people, etc.

A good person is going to do good things regardless of if the bible tells them so or not (look at Denmark (or one of the half-dozen similar countries out there, largely non-religious and lowest crime rates+high standard of living) (look at the more religious places/non-secular countries and their standard of living)
A bad person is going to do bad things even if the bible tells them not to and might even us it as justification (nazis/spanish inquisition)

There are good people who have done good things with religion being a motivating factor but they are a minority.

[Map]

Pretty sure the bible is a book of rules



A good person is going to do good things regardless of if the bible tells them so or not (look at Denmark (or one of the half-dozen similar countries out there, largely non-religious and lowest crime rates+high standard of living) (look at the more religious places/non-secular countries and their standard of living)
A bad person is going to do bad things even if the bible tells them not to and might even us it as justification (nazis/spanish inquisition)

There are good people who have done good things with religion being a motivating factor but they are a minority.

You are entitled to have your opinion of course , but I don't think the bible is a book of rules. I'm pretty sure it's a source, otherwise how else would we know about the past and Jesus, and the miracles, and an idea of who God and Jesus was? There's probably only a handful what I would consider rules, but if they were rules, what rules in this world were never broken?

It's interesting -- I was thinking more locally, but okay... yes there are cases where good people do good things without religion. There are cases where people do bad things with religion. I hear most of my stories from others, and I have to wonder. Would people be serving people who are in poverty, living in the slums without religion? Could you really love people you actually hate and who have wronged you without religion? Of course there will be yes's and no's, but for ME personally I think it would be VERY, VERY hard to drop my life and go serve the urban poor, or to drop my job to go help stop the sex-trade going on in numerous countries throughout the world.

For me, I don't think it's a minority for what people do. I see alot of good, and less of the bad in religion, maybe it's where i'm from or something, how I grew up, what i've done. I think there's alot more people than you think who actually do good, with religion. For me, I can think of alot of people who do things -- but they aren't doing these things to make a name for themselves. Why do you need to become famous to help out somebody who really needs help?

For my point of view, there is alot of good that comes from religion. You know, as I sit here I wonder, if i'm just arguing to defend it, or just for the kicks to talk about it. I know though that even though if we go back in History and point out the flaws, the bads, and the goods of religion I don't think it's going to do anything, is it?

My view of religion is basically that it provides hope (proven, medically), and it provides a momentum to go and help others and need, to heal brokenness, to get through hard struggles in life. I can't imagine the world just happening by an accident, and scientifically I know that there is a case that's going on now that our make-up in this world has some evidence of a creator.

Anyways, it's clear that this argument/debate will go no where. People want tangable, physical evidence. How could I ever provide that? . As much as I want to continue this discussion, what it really boils down to is it's basically it's down to you. If you believe, you believe. If you don't, you don't. You can't just press on your beliefs onto somebody else and make them accept it, they have to experience something to wonder, to seek and to explore.

[Sweeney]

You say you would find it harder to be a moral person without God?
That's effectively saying that you behave morally either because you fear eternal punishment, or because you're trying to earn eternal salvation.

Which isn't moral behaviour at all.

[Mr. Hobo]

but I don't think the bible is a book of rules.

So the 10 commandments, rituals you have to perform and what you have to do to get on gods good sides aren't rules? There are a lot more than a handful

Would people be serving people who are in poverty, living in the slums without religion?

Secular humanism/socialism/communism.

provides hope (proven, medically),

Fun fact, little irrelevant: in the god delusion dawkins talked about a study where there were 3 groups of people. those being prayed for, those that weren't being prayed for and those that were being prayed and knew about it. Those that were being prayed for and didn't know about it alongside those who weren't being prayed for faired better in average than the ones who knew about it. (naturally this study was biased but most concerning religion are)

And even then, I'd much prefer to place my hope in a doctor. I'd rather have a doctor trying to cure my cancer than a priest praying for a solution. And if Christianity never lost its iron grip I'm pretty sure doctors would still be using leeches and ignorant about bacteria.

You can't just press on your beliefs onto somebody else and make them accept it

You can point out the flaws and hope that they apply the same arguements they have against Allah/Santa Claus towards their own god and reach a logical conclusion

[Map]

You say you would find it harder to be a moral person without God?
That's effectively saying that you behave morally either because you fear eternal punishment, or because you're trying to earn eternal salvation.

Which isn't moral behaviour at all.

Haha, are you judging me because I think I wouldn't be able to drop everything I had to go somewhere and help? I'm not sure what to deduct from this. Are you better than me because I don't have that courage or boldness to do that? Interesting...

So the 10 commandments, rituals you have to perform and what you have to do to get on gods good sides aren't rules? There are a lot more than a handful
You can point out the flaws and hope that they apply the same arguements they have against Allah/Santa Claus towards their own god and reach a logical conclusion

Name the rituals.

True, that's fine. But are you saying if somebody was healed or somebody pressed on with their lives because of trauma through religion, You want to take that away from them? If a rape-victim coped through the trauma through religion, I wonder why you would want to work to take that away from them -- just theoretically saying.

I took a class on Medicine and religion, it was really interesting. Alot of studies concerning this, not sure if I can be like OMG ITS SUPER EVIDENCE, but alot of studies showed that religion helped alot of people with medical ailments (cancer, diabedes, other diseases as well).

Actually, this is probably going to be my last post. It was a fun debate, but debates never go anywhere. Also when I feel like it's starting to get too personal and provocative, it's time to withdraw from this board. I don't mind continuing it via PM, but that's up to you if you want to .

Edited by annabeth, 12 January 2010 - 08:37 PM.

[Mr. Hobo]

Name the rituals.

Baptism
Circumcision
Crap about transubstantiation
http://bible.org/ser...-sanctification

Off the top of my head and I've barely read the bible

True, that's fine. But are you saying if somebody was healed or somebody pressed on with their lives because of trauma through religion, You want to take that away from them? If a rape-victim coped through the trauma through religion, I wonder why you would want to work to take that away from them -- just theoretically saying.

I wouldn't. If a rape victim would be talking about how their religion helped them cope I wouldn't start arguing against religion

but alot of studies showed that religion helped alot of people with medical ailments (cancer, diabedes, other diseases as well).

Fight against stem cell research would be a modern example and well, historically religion hasn't been too fond of science (the more stuff science reveals about the world the less stuff can be attributed to god)

Actually, this is probably going to be my last post. It was a fun debate, but debates never go anywhere. Also when I feel like it's starting to get too personal and provocative, it's time to withdraw from this board. I don't mind continuing it via PM, but that's up to you if you want to

Meh, doubt that will amount to anything . Farewell

[Sweeney]

Haha, are you judging me because I think I wouldn't be able to drop everything I had to go somewhere and help? I'm not sure what to deduct from this. Are you better than me because I don't have that courage or boldness to do that? Interesting...

No, I'm better than you because I do nice things for the sake of doing nice things, and not in a lifelong effort to get into heaven.

[Map]

No, I'm better than you because I do nice things for the sake of doing nice things, and not in a lifelong effort to get into heaven.

Well you did a good job provoking me to come back and post. But out of the millions of things I wanted to say, I guess i'll just say three of them.

1. Quote me where I said I'm: "only doing nice things to do a lifelong effort to get into heaven."

2. I'm not talking about nice things as in, Oh, donate some money here, donate some money there. I'm talking about devoting your entire life to helping other people, living in the slums, among them, helping their needs. Me saying that it would be very hard for me to devote my entire life, like other people have, I don't know if I could do it. I didn't say I'm not going to, did I? How would I know where i'm going to be in five, ten years?

3. I believe you. You are definitely giving off the aura that you do very nice things

[Sweeney]

Well you did a good job provoking me to come back and post. But out of the millions of things I wanted to say, I guess i'll just say three of them.

1. Quote me where I said I'm: "only doing nice things to do a lifelong effort to get into heaven."

2. I'm not talking about nice things as in, Oh, donate some money here, donate some money there. I'm talking about devoting your entire life to helping other people, living in the slums, among them, helping their needs. Me saying that it would be very hard for me to devote my entire life, like other people have, I don't know if I could do it. I didn't say I'm not going to, did I? How would I know where i'm going to be in five, ten years?

3. I believe you. You are definitely giving off the aura that you do very nice things

You didn't say it, you implied it.

[Map]

You didn't say it, you implied it.

I do not see where I implied it. Which is why I asked you to support your accusation so I can see where you got such a assumption of my character and how that point got blown up to that.

Edit: Actually, it doesn't really matter. I *was* offended and curious of why you were being so rude, but after seeing your response, it's not really the debate as the thread suggests. It's just an attack.

Edited by annabeth, 13 January 2010 - 10:49 AM.

[Sweeney]

I do not see where I implied it. Which is why I asked you to support your accusation so I can see where you got such a assumption of my character and how that point got blown up to that.

Could you really love people you actually hate and who have wronged you without religion? Of course there will be yes's and no's, but for ME personally I think it would be VERY, VERY hard to drop my life and go serve the urban poor, or to drop my job to go help stop the sex-trade going on in numerous countries throughout the world.

See bolded.

[Map]

See bolded.

I saw it, read it. Sorry, still failed to see the connection.

Expressing my opinion on something...

And you implied it as

"only doing nice things to do a lifelong effort to get into heaven."

Yeah... Still not seeing it. I'm supposed to apologize for saying that I personally don't think I could do it on my own. It would be hard for me, because I know it would be a very scary experience.

Bravo, if you have the boldness and strength to do it. Not everyone has that.

Edited by annabeth, 13 January 2010 - 11:08 AM.

[Sweeney]

I saw it, read it. Sorry, still failed to see the connection.

Expressing my opinion on something...

And you implied it as

"only doing nice things to do a lifelong effort to get into heaven."

Yeah... Still not seeing it. I'm supposed to apologize for saying that I personally don't think I could do it on my own. It would be hard for me, because I know it would be a very scary experience.

Bravo, if you have the boldness and strength to do it. Not everyone has that.

It's called reductio ad absurdum. Following a line of reasoning to its conclusion, which is ridiculous.

[Map]

It's called reductio ad absurdum. Following a line of reasoning to its conclusion, which is ridiculous.

Could you really love people you actually hate and who have wronged you without religion? Of course there will be yes's and no's, but for ME personally I think it would be VERY, VERY hard to drop my life and go serve the urban poor, or to drop my job to go help stop the sex-trade going on in numerous countries throughout the world.

Translates into:

No, I'm better than you because I do nice things for the sake of doing nice things, and not in a lifelong effort to get into heaven.

Right. Because making that, what should we call it, accusation? Judgement? on somebody you don't know, isn't ridiculous at all !
Using this logic, I accuse you of being a jerk! :x3:Yay, did I do it correctly? I don't know you, but I'm going to just make a huge accusation of your character! And therefore, since you are a jerk, that's no possible way that you would ever do nice things, etc, etc etc. blah blah blah how dare you etc.

Actually, I'm kind of tired of this . There's so many places to start, but actually what does it matter? Regardless it seems whatever I say, you will not yield. Whatever you say, I will not yield.

But in the end, could you explain :"No, I'm better than you because I do nice things for the sake of doing nice things, and not in a lifelong effort to get into heaven." has to do with anything in this debate thread?

Did it turn into a e-contest without me knowing?!

Edited by annabeth, 13 January 2010 - 12:21 PM.

[Devilfish]

It isn't our job to judge or convict what is a sin or not... I think our only job in this world is to love.

I sorta missed that part of the thread, but I like what you said there. It reminds me of a story I read about a priest at an anti-abortion rally. I'll just quote it here for accuracy:

-------------------------

“I have heard many of you talking today about God’s punishment, His wrath. How you’re good Christians because you hate abortion. But, after listening to the people gathered here, I can’t help but notice that some of you harbor a vituperative attitude towards the very women you want to help.”
People start shifting in their seats uncomfortably.
“I know many of you, like me, are here because you want to defend the unborn. Some of you are motivated by the deepest conviction.”
Another pause.
“But some of you are here because you love to hate.”
Shocked silence.
“Are you here because you really want to help the unborn?” my godfather asks. “Have you taken an unwed mother into your home? Feed her? Cared for her baby? Or are you here because this is where your friends are? Are you here to indulge in a comforting sense of moral superiority? Smug in your certitude you’re not going to hell?”
Everyone is listening now.
“Let me tell you about something about Hell,” my godfather says, “We know there’s a hell because Jesus said there’s one. But we don’t know if anyone’s actually in it.”
My godfather lets that thought sink in.
“What’s more,” he says, “Jesus never liked hypocrites. He once said, ‘They do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people’s shoulders, but will they lift a finger to move them? No! Every thing they do is done to attract attention!”
Now some of the congregants look angry.
“Let me ask you something. Are you relieving these women of their burdens? Or are you adding to them with your self righteousness? Are you helping or hurting? Because if all of your fervor is directed towards feeling good about yourself, if it’s about getting attention, if its about how you’re better than someone else - YOU ARE WASTING GOD’S TIME!”
A couple of people get up to leave. Undaunted my godfather continues.
“The Lord has never been welcome in the house of the righteous and the certain. Instead He walks amidst the damaged and the confused. To Him, the one that is lost is a treasure beyond price. Who are we to judge these women? They are precious treasure. Love, not hatred, is what they need.”
His words reverberate through the church. People are staring at the floor. Some shake their heads in disagreement. Others look thoughtful.
“Remember, the mercy of God is radical and boundless,” my godfather says, “And I thank God everyday that He is more merciful than you or I will ever be.”

----------------------

You known, this kind of Christiaity I can get with.

Edited by Devilfish, 13 January 2010 - 12:17 PM.

[Sweeney]

Could you really love people you actually hate and who have wronged you without religion? Of course there will be yes's and no's, but for ME personally I think it would be VERY, VERY hard to drop my life and go serve the urban poor, or to drop my job to go help stop the sex-trade going on in numerous countries throughout the world.

Translates into:

No, I'm better than you because I do nice things for the sake of doing nice things, and not in a lifelong effort to get into heaven.

Right. Because making that, what should we call it, accusation? Judgement? on somebody you don't know, isn't ridiculous at all !
Using this logic, I accuse you of being a jerk! :x3:Yay, did I do it correctly? I don't know you, but I'm going to just make a huge accusation of your character! And therefore, since you are a jerk, that's no possible way that you would ever do nice things, etc, etc etc. blah blah blah how dare you etc.

Actually, I'm kind of tired of this . There's so many places to start, but actually what does it matter? Regardless it seems whatever I say, you will not yield. Whatever you say, I will not yield.

But in the end, could you explain :"No, I'm better than you because I do nice things for the sake of doing nice things, and not in a lifelong effort to get into heaven." has to do with anything in this debate thread?

Did it turn into a e-contest without me knowing?!

Are you missing out your second post on purpose?
"Haha, are you judging me because I think I wouldn't be able to drop everything I had to go somewhere and help? I'm not sure what to deduct from this. Are you better than me because I don't have that courage or boldness to do that? Interesting..."

The one where you decided I was judging you based not on your post, but on aspects of your life I know nothing about?

My suggestion would be to go back and address my original point in a manner more appropriate to the debate thread, if you're so determined to stay on topic.

[Map]

The one where you decided I was judging you based not on your post, but on aspects of your life I know nothing about?

My suggestion would be to go back and address my original point in a manner more appropriate to the debate thread, if you're so determined to stay on topic.

Excuse me? Who attacked who first here?

As much as I enjoy my post count going up and up, I already broke my own conduct by saying I wouldn't post here anymore. Forget it. I shouldn't of even fallen for the trap of being provoked back.

Edited by annabeth, 13 January 2010 - 12:42 PM.

[bigtymerz05]

yes i do i dont wanna argue or anything but yea i just wanted to answer that questions.ill just keep my reasons to my self.

[Sweeney]

Excuse me? Who attacked who first here?

As much as I enjoy my post count going up and up, I already broke my own conduct by saying I wouldn't post here anymore. Forget it. I shouldn't of even fallen for the trap of being provoked back.

You could have just said that there's nothing you can actually say in response, instead of acting the martyr...

yes i do i dont wanna argue or anything but yea i just wanted to answer that questions.ill just keep my reasons to my self.

Congratulations on missing the point of a debate thread xD

[Devilfish]

Are there people here who believe that the Bible is the word of God? Because I have a question for them, just out of curiosity. The Bible has been heavily censored through the ages. Take the Gospel of Judas for example, and many agnostic texts. Huge chunks were cut out not because God or a representative of God said to do it, but because regular people without any divine inspiration decided these bits shouldn't be in it.

What I'm saying is that the Bible, word of God or not, is incomplete. Doesn't that bother people who live by the Bible because it's God's word? No snark, promise, I really, really want to know.

[vendetta.inc]

Not one bit.

[Devilfish]

It doesn't bother you, you mean?

That's very strange. You don't care that some person (just a dude like you and me with no ties to God or his divine posse) declared that the word of God shouldn't be passed on? These people robbed you of the divine word, edited the Bible you live by, for political and wholly mundane reasons... and you're fine with that?

You're going to need to give me a reason here, or at least more than a sentence fragment, because I'm lost.

Edited by Devilfish, 13 January 2010 - 03:39 PM.

[luvsmyncis]

My view of religion is basically that it provides hope (proven, medically), and it provides a momentum to go and help others and need, to heal brokenness, to get through hard struggles in life. I can't imagine the world just happening by an accident, and scientifically I know that there is a case that's going on now that our make-up in this world has some evidence of a creator.

Anyways, it's clear that this argument/debate will go no where. People want tangable, physical evidence. How could I ever provide that? . As much as I want to continue this discussion, what it really boils down to is it's basically it's down to you. If you believe, you believe. If you don't, you don't. You can't just press on your beliefs onto somebody else and make them accept it, they have to experience something to wonder, to seek and to explore.

I don't know if religion has been medically proven to provide hope. Maybe there was a phase 4 study where people were given religion and their hope was measured in the before and after. Seriously, I think a lot of people cannot mentally accept that our existence is pretty meaningless in the big scheme of things. Religion gives some people reason for being. God created man in his own image, and if you believe in him you will have everlasting life in heaven. Doesn't that sound way better than we came from monkeys and shit and eventually we will all die?

I agree this debate goes nowhere because of the 'tangable, physical evidence'. There is no way for someone who believes in God to come in here and give a real reason why. It all depends on how you were raised and your own life experiences. I was raised Catholic, and once I had a tortilla that had the Virgin of Guadalupe on it. But even though that was totally bad ass, it wasn't enough to make me REALLY believe.

No, I'm better than you because I do nice things for the sake of doing nice things, and not in a lifelong effort to get into heaven.

Proof or it didn't happen.
I personally don't do good things often. When I do, it's not because I'm afraid God or Santa is watching, but it's mostly because I fear what my mother would think of me.

Are there people here who believe that the Bible is the word of God? Because I have a question for them, just out of curiosity. The Bible has been heavily censored through the ages. Take the Gospel of Judas for example, and many agnostic texts. Huge chunks were cut out not because God or a representative of God said to do it, but because regular people without any divine inspiration decided these bits shouldn't be in it.

What I'm saying is that the Bible, word of God or not, is incomplete. Doesn't that bother people who live by the Bible because it's God's word? No snark, promise, I really, really want to know.

The Gospel of Judas is like reading someone's dream. And since we already have Revelations to blow our minds, it isn't needed.

People who LIVE BY THE BIBLE view it as complete, therefore, I doubt it bothers them some gospels and scripture have been left out.

[outsidedream86]

Are there people here who believe that the Bible is the word of God? Because I have a question for them, just out of curiosity. The Bible has been heavily censored through the ages. Take the Gospel of Judas for example, and many agnostic texts. Huge chunks were cut out not because God or a representative of God said to do it, but because regular people without any divine inspiration decided these bits shouldn't be in it.

I'm sure you know the answer to this one Because God wouldn't have let it happened if he didn't want the Bible to turn out that way...and/or the texts removed were not actually the work of God but of man and God rightfully made sure they were removed. At least, that's what I always hear when it comes up in conversation.

But yeah, it's amazing the number of Christians (and atheists) I know that have no idea about the Bible's history and what has been added, removed, or altered. I love Bible history. It's fascinating.

[Joanna]

I love Bible history. It's fascinating.

The history of the Bible reminds me a lot of the history of the royal family. *Lol thats a loaded statement.*
Even though Im an atheist I could watch bible history programs on the history channel for hours. Though I only tend to watch them at night before bed.