1730 replies to this topic

[Mr. Hobo]

I'm sure you know the answer to this one Because God wouldn't have let it happened if he didn't want the Bible to turn out that way...

What happened to free will?

[Devilfish]

I'm sure you know the answer to this one

Yeah, I know the standard answers, but it'd be nice to hear someone who actually believed argue their point.

What happened to free will?

Other thread

Edited by Devilfish, 14 January 2010 - 08:54 AM.

[outsidedream86]

Haha I like the ad at the bottom of the page..."Is There a God? Click to find six reasons that God exists." They sound a lot like the arguments on this thread

[Mr. Hobo]

Other thread

Ya but people were just using gods noninterference/free to justify so many of us going to hell

[Devilfish]

You know, the other day there was a couple at the door (temperatures way below zero, snowing, freezing cold) wanting to talk to my dad. He was an old friend, so I let them in even though my dad wasn't there. Turns out they really wanted to talk to me about Jesus. I told them I wanted to be a priest when I was very young, but I couldn't because I'm a girl and that made me turn away from the Catholisism (which is actually true). I made them some coffee and they talked to me about love and the beautiful, just world that would come one day. They even invited me into it. I took their pamphlets, thanked them and promised them I'd read wha they gave me, which I didn't, because I don't believe a word of it.

It got me thinking though. These people going out in a freaking blizzard. And you could tell that they really, truly believed in this beautiful tomorrow and they genuinely wanted me to be there with them. And they love me, because they love Jesus, and they see God in me even if all I see is a tiny, insignificant person... I was thinking about this thread and all the discussions just like it and I found myself wondering why we hate these people so much, why we look down our noses at them. I believe in a great many things, I'm sure we all do, but none of us are out there in the snow getting doors slammed into our face.

Regardless of facts, regardless of how wrong or right they may be and how much I did not believe what thy told me, I liked having them over. The idea that there's so much love in the world, even if it's love for an abstract entity, it realy made my day. And it certainly made me see that religious love can really cover you and warm you like a blanket, isntead of strangling you like a noose, which is how many non-believers choose to see religion. I can see how people would welcome that kind of warmth and love into their lives.

It's not as simple as we'd like it to be.

[Lilithia]

You know, the other day there was a couple at the door (temperatures way below zero, snowing, freezing cold) wanting to talk to my dad. He was an old friend, so I let them in even though my dad wasn't there. Turns out they really wanted to talk to me about Jesus. I told them I wanted to be a priest when I was very young, but I couldn't because I'm a girl and that made me turn away from the Catholisism (which is actually true). I made them some coffee and they talked to me about love and the beautiful, just world that would come one day. They even invited me into it. I took their pamphlets, thanked them and promised them I'd read wha they gave me, which I didn't, because I don't believe a word of it.

It got me thinking though. These people going out in a freaking blizzard. And you could tell that they really, truly believed in this beautiful tomorrow and they genuinely wanted me to be there with them. And they love me, because they love Jesus, and they see God in me even if all I see is a tiny, insignificant person... I was thinking about this thread and all the discussions just like it and I found myself wondering why we hate these people so much, why we look down our noses at them. I believe in a great many things, I'm sure we all do, but none of us are out there in the snow getting doors slammed into our face.

Regardless of facts, regardless of how wrong or right they may be and how much I did not believe what thy told me, I liked having them over. The idea that there's so much love in the world, even if it's love for an abstract entity, it realy made my day. And it certainly made me see that religious love can really cover you and warm you like a blanket, isntead of strangling you like a noose, which is how many non-believers choose to see religion. I can see how people would welcome that kind of warmth and love into their lives.

It's not as simple as we'd like it to be.

You have a point, but I believe that love like that should be given to people, not an unknown entity. So many spend their whole lives praying and praying and praying for world peace ect. ect. but what they don't realise is that the only way to make things happen is to get out there and force it. One shouldn't hope for miracles to happen, because, honestly, what are the chances?

And that's where religion screws with your brain. It tells you that God shall offer salvation and mercy, as long has you believe. Isn't that ludicrous? What kind of all-powerful being would need you to believe in him/her? Doesn't that make it seem as though God needs YOU, not the other way around? Logic falls apart right there.
Crusades, Jihads, call it what you will, are wars fought in the name of God. Of religion. I quote 'the greatest acts of evil are done in the name of God'.

So no. I do not believe in God. (But in front of my parents, I still have to pretend. Woe is me. )

[Sweeney]

You know, the other day there was a couple at the door (temperatures way below zero, snowing, freezing cold) wanting to talk to my dad. He was an old friend, so I let them in even though my dad wasn't there. Turns out they really wanted to talk to me about Jesus. I told them I wanted to be a priest when I was very young, but I couldn't because I'm a girl and that made me turn away from the Catholisism (which is actually true). I made them some coffee and they talked to me about love and the beautiful, just world that would come one day. They even invited me into it. I took their pamphlets, thanked them and promised them I'd read wha they gave me, which I didn't, because I don't believe a word of it.

It got me thinking though. These people going out in a freaking blizzard. And you could tell that they really, truly believed in this beautiful tomorrow and they genuinely wanted me to be there with them. And they love me, because they love Jesus, and they see God in me even if all I see is a tiny, insignificant person... I was thinking about this thread and all the discussions just like it and I found myself wondering why we hate these people so much, why we look down our noses at them. I believe in a great many things, I'm sure we all do, but none of us are out there in the snow getting doors slammed into our face.

Regardless of facts, regardless of how wrong or right they may be and how much I did not believe what thy told me, I liked having them over. The idea that there's so much love in the world, even if it's love for an abstract entity, it realy made my day. And it certainly made me see that religious love can really cover you and warm you like a blanket, isntead of strangling you like a noose, which is how many non-believers choose to see religion. I can see how people would welcome that kind of warmth and love into their lives.

It's not as simple as we'd like it to be.

I guess it's down to preference. Personally, I'd rather have cold facts than a fluffy, comforting lie.
And I can't respect anyone who wilfully chooses to decieve themselves.

[Devilfish]

And I can't respect anyone who wilfully chooses to decieve themselves.

It's not always a matter of choice. A person's upbringing fundamentally influences them. Nobody wakes up one day and think to themselves "From today onward, I shall let my thoughts and actions be governed by an imaginary man in the sky and an old book with haf the chapters missing. That'll be neat." Obviously everyone has the ability to choose what to believe, but people who have been told a 'lie' their entire lives, from their first day well into adulthood, definitely hve it a lot tougher. I can't blame people for failing to do something that's so insanely hard. Just like I can't look down my nose at my friend or judge her for not being able to overcome her eating disorders and depression. Changing what you fundamentally believe is too hard for some people. That includes most of us here, by the way.

Edited by Devilfish, 18 January 2010 - 11:23 AM.

[Sweeney]

It's not always a matter of choice. A person's upbringing fundamentally influences them. Nobody wakes up one day and think to themselves "From today onward, I shall let my thoughts and actions be governed by an imaginary man in the sky and an old book with haf the chapters missing. That'll be neat." Obviously everyone has the ability to choose what to believe, but people who have been told a 'lie' their entire lives, from their first day well into adulthood, definitely hve it a lot tougher. I can't blame people for failing to do something that's so insanely hard. Just like I can't look down my nose at my friend or judge her for not being able to overcome her eating disorders and depression. Changing what you fundamentally believe is too hard for some people. That includes most of us here, by the way.

Of course you wouldn't judge someone who has tried, and failed. It's people that don't try that I have no respect for.

[Devilfish]

Of course you wouldn't judge someone who has tried, and failed. It's people that don't try that I have no respect for.

You can't tell who's trying by looking at them. It's a very personal journey and one rabid atheist on your path can set you back ages. (I know they did for me. I'd probably be a complete atheist now if I hand't been so repulsed by militant atheists demonising my old religion and branding me as a gullible idiot and a coward). And while I personally don't have a problem with you, you do take a pretty confrontational tone that doesn't exactly invite people to talk openly about their doubts. People who doubt don't like being confronted with others who are so sure of themselves, so sure they are right. It can actually make them stop doubting and return to 'their' side, because the other side seems even worse. And that's a shame, because doubt does a soul good.

I do agree with you on an intellectual level, but on a practical, day-to-day level, that line of thinking doesn't work and is actually counter-productive.

[Sweeney]

You can't tell who's trying by looking at them. It's a very personal journey and one rabid atheist on your path can set you back ages. (I know they did for me. I'd probably be a complete atheist now if I hand't been so repulsed by militant atheists demonising my old religion and branding me as a gullible idiot and a coward). And while I personally don't have a problem with you, you do take a pretty confrontational tone that doesn't exactly invite people to talk openly about their doubts. People who doubt don't like being confronted with others who are so sure of themselves, so sure they are right. It can actually make them stop doubting and return to 'their' side, because the other side seems even worse. And that's a shame, because doubt does a soul good.

I do agree with you on an intellectual level, but on a practical, day-to-day level, that line of thinking doesn't work and is actually counter-productive.

Not by looking, but by getting into a genuine discussion... But yes, we're essentially talking around the same opinion

[pyke]

Me and the big G were just chillin earlier, u mad joe?

But really though, I'd be inclined to believe in Morlocks before God. There's no proof of existence and the evidence presented by religious people isn't convincing.

[chobitz]

I believe in a god/higher being. I DO NOT believe in the biblical god, or the bible itself. Nor do I believe in Jesus Christ.

The biblical god is flawed, angry and insecure. Why follow an imperfect god? The bible itself is so edited and mistranslated over the years how can anyone call it the word of god?

Not to pick on just Christians. But TBH all religions are flawed IMO. They have been twisted by humankind to control and manipulate the population, it doesn't matter which religion.

People often confuse god with religion. You can have god without religion. I do.

And not to insult anyone personally but I often think Rabid Atheists are similar to Evangelical Christians. If any kink is made in either of their beliefs their whole world may fall apart.

I tell my Christian and atheist friends the same thing. Don't try to convert me and I won't rant how both of their world views are messed up to me.

[luvsmyncis]

And not to insult anyone personally but I often think Rabid Atheists are similar to Evangelical Christians.

And PETA.

p.s. LOL. Morlocks.

[chobitz]

And PETA.

p.s. LOL. Morlocks.

Oh don't get me started on PETA LOL

[Devilfish]

And PETA.

p.s. LOL. Morlocks.

Don't get me started on Morlocks. Hate the buggers. Hate them much.

Edited by Devilfish, 23 January 2010 - 08:07 AM.

[Boggart]

yes, but I'm not sure which greater power nor do I believe will we ever know.

[Devilfish]

yes, but I'm not sure which greater power nor do I believe will we ever know.

So how does that work for you? In daily life, I mean.

[xboox]

yeah,why not

[Darkmagi310]

No

[Devilfish]

yeah,why not

No

Sentences people! We need sentences! Preferably a lot of them that form a coherent argument, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[Mr. Hobo]

Sentences people! We need sentences! Preferably a lot of them that form a coherent argument, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

/agree

[pyke]

So how does that work for you? In daily life, I mean.

I daresay it's had as much impact as not believing.

[Devilfish]

/agree

The irony is killing me.

[outsidedream86]

So back when I was in the process of examining what I believed in terms of religion and a higher power and all that, I came across this public access call-in tv show out of Austin called The Atheist Experience. Not the best production values, and sometimes the host Matt can be a bit berating (in my opinion), but I found the show content to be excellent and it really helped me understand apologist arguments as well as what atheism actually means. Just thought I'd throw that out there in case other people were interested. The episodes make for some really interesting topics for discussion...that we (including believers I hope) could discuss here...to get this thread back on track....