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Do you believe in god?


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#576 Volition

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:22 AM

Well one thing is for certain if we didn't have any religion the world would be in disarray. Morality will be questioned since after all morality is basing things on God and what he wants us to become so that we go to heaven. The justice system will be in tatters after all a lot of people believe that there is an afterlife and that's why most people don't do crimes. Without a means for hope in the next life poor people will commit suicide or will turn to crime without a seconds thought


yeah totally, without religion there would be no Inquisition, no (religious) extremists, no Jihadists, no holy crusades, no sarin gas attack (1996 japan, by aum shinrikyo), no polygamy, no sex abuse from bishops, and no persecution of great thinkers like galileo or copernicus. But if you really want to get into heaven, just burn a few heretics at the stake (Inquisition), maybe indoctrinate the world with superstition and you should be good to go.

#577 Mr. Hobo

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 07:19 PM

Well one thing is for certain if we didn't have any religion the world would be in disarray. Morality will be questioned since after all morality is basing things on God and what he wants us to become so that we go to heaven. The justice system will be in tatters after all a lot of people believe that there is an afterlife and that's why most people don't do crimes. Without a means for hope in the next life poor people will commit suicide or will turn to crime without a seconds thought


Why aren't atheists going around murdering and raping?

Plenty of people don't commit crimes because they are good people, not because they fear punishment from a God. Is the risk of God punishing you the only thing stopping you from being a criminal?

Maybe without delusions about an afterlife rewarding them for suffering injustice poor people will focus on improving their current lives

#578 Sweeney

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 04:44 AM

Well one thing is for certain if we didn't have any religion the world would be in disarray.

Bollocks.
Sweden is the country with the highest percentage of atheists/agnostics in its population (up to 85% according to different surveys), yet it is also consistently listed in the top ten countries with the highest standard of living. It is also the number one country for sexual equality, according to 2009's Human Development Report.

Morality will be questioned since after all morality is basing things on God

Bzzt. Try again.
Morality is based on what you know and feel to be true. Many people cite the Bible as justification for multiple atrocities across the world, and yet other people, who believe in the same book, condemn them. This makes two points; firstly, that the Bible is an appalling moral guide, given its obfuscated language and dated conventions; and secondly, that people interpret the Bible according to what they already feel to be right and wrong.

and what he wants us to become so that we go to heaven.

More contradiction in Christian dogma, here. But we'll let it lie since it's mostly off topic. Ask about it again if you want me to explain.

The justice system will be in tatters after all a lot of people believe that there is an afterlife

Approximately 20% of prison inmates are Atheist, according to 2002 data from the FBP. The other top few categories, making up roughly 70% of the prison population all believe in faiths that have an afterlife promised in their teaching.

Ergo, faith in an afterlife is certainly not a deterrent from crime, and may even be a reward for certain types of crime, and people.

and that's why most people don't do crimes.

As said; bollocks.

Without a means for hope in the next life poor people will commit suicide or will turn to crime without a seconds thought

If "hope in the next life" is all that keeps these people alive and well-behaved, our society has a problem much more vast than a few potential suicides.

Edit: I should add, I argue this mostly on the Christian perspective, since it's far and away the most prevalent religion in the west.

#579 kittycat

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 08:09 AM

Christians make up about 80% of the American population AND prison population.

Some morality there!!! (Lmao at all the flaws in that argument but whatever)

#580 Information

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 08:21 AM

I believe in a god... keyword "a".

#581 Sweeney

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 08:22 AM

I believe in a god... keyword "a".

Which one, and why?

#582 Frizzle

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 12:24 PM

Bollocks.
Sweden is the country with the highest percentage of atheists/agnostics in its population (up to 85% according to different surveys), yet it is also consistently listed in the top ten countries with the highest standard of living. It is also the number one country for sexual equality, according to 2009's Human Development Report.

No. Just because one's standard of living is higher on average (which is of course a socially constructed termed and therefore manipulated) than anothers; it does not show a cause and affect between deitism or lack of in relation to living standards. Again for sexual equality, just because a society is based on religion or set of beliefs; it does not mean it will have a lower set of standards in sexual equality just because you used one (extreme) example.

Bzzt. Try again.
Morality is based on what you know and feel to be true. Many people cite the Bible as justification for multiple atrocities across the world, and yet other people, who believe in the same book, condemn them. This makes two points; firstly, that the Bible is an appalling moral guide, given its obfuscated language and dated conventions; and secondly, that people interpret the Bible according to what they already feel to be right and wrong.

The Bible is what most Western societies legal systems are based and adapted upon. You can find christian roots or influence in almost any country in the world when dealing with laws. Laws are another social construct which is based on what a society or culture deems acceptable or not. If a law is based on not murdering or commiting adultery which you called an "appalling moral guide" then you have some wierd views on morality. Unless you're taking the bible in a literal case. In which case your point only applies to christian fundementalits, and which as a Brit, you'll know a rarity. Also, science has been used as a justification for many atrocities. The ends justifiy the means. Unit 731 and Josef Mengeles are just two wikipedia articles to look at.

Approximately 20% of prison inmates are Atheist, according to 2002 data from the FBP. The other top few categories, making up roughly 70% of the prison population all believe in faiths that have an afterlife promised in their teaching.
Ergo, faith in an afterlife is certainly not a deterrent from crime, and may even be a reward for certain types of crime, and people.

Do you seriously believe that 70% of "believers" are bible reading prima donnas? Religion is just a converted form of gang culture and most black or asian inmates are persuaded to join muslim groups, whilst whites are persuaded to join christian organisations. They aren't religious; at all. Just gangs of angry tattoed blokes stabbing each other. And that's from personal experience as well as most prison officers judgements, their SO's opinions and even the POA's view.

Edit: I should add, I argue this mostly on the Christian perspective, since it's far and away the most prevalent religion in the west.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not a christian. I just like picking holes in logic.

Christians make up about 80% of the American population AND prison population.

Some morality there!!! (Lmao at all the flaws in that argument but whatever)


Link? I refuse to believe that over 250 million Americans are christian. Infact most sources put the total christian number as a little under 173 million and in the 60-70% range. Although this is a large number we also have to look at this as a general census and therefore made up of estimated populations and usually have a general incorrect ration of between 6-7%.

Which one, and why?


If you look at it in another way...some people's GOD is others DOG.

#583 Antivenin

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 12:34 PM

Yes, Pascal's Wager.

#584 Sweeney

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 12:45 PM

Lee, my first point was that atheism wouldn't render the world into a state of disarray. Not that atheists are better people.
My second point was that morality isn't based on God.
My third point was that there's no discernible difference that believing in an afterlife has on crime.

All of these points I made, and I made well, and none of them are refuted by your counter points.
Next time you try to tear down my logic, at least make sure you're deconstructing them from the correct perspective.

Yes, Pascal's Wager.

Pascal's Wager?
Are you serious?

That's almost as bad as being convinced by Paley's Wristwatch.

#585 Antivenin

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 12:54 PM

Yes, I'm serious. And if that's the best counter-argument you can come up with, then I'm glad I actually believe in God.

#586 Sweeney

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 01:08 PM

Yes, I'm serious. And if that's the best counter-argument you can come up with, then I'm glad I actually believe in God.

Alrighty, phrase your understanding of Pascal's Wager, and why you think it's convincing, in your own words, and I'll give you a comprehensive counter argument.

#587 Antivenin

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 01:24 PM

Okay. No one can say with real certainty whether God exists or not. Consequently, there is a small chance he exists. So a man who believes in God has nothing to lose if God doesn't in fact exist. However if God does exist (however small that chance may be), that man would be wrong to wager his 'eternal happiness' on it, and then suffer later. That's my understanding of the argument. Pascal rambles a bit about the corruption of reason.

#588 Sweeney

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 01:33 PM

Okay. No one can say with real certainty whether God exists or not. Consequently, there is a small chance he exists. So a man who believes in God has nothing to lose if God doesn't in fact exist. However if God does exist (however small that chance may be), that man would be wrong to wager his 'eternal happiness' on it, and then suffer later. That's my understanding of the argument. Pascal rambles a bit about the corruption of reason.

Problem being, of course, that it doesn't account for the possibility of choosing the wrong God.
In which case, and assuming that Gods don't take belief in the wrong God in credit, you're still not assured "eternal happiness".

In fact, given the sheer number of Gods that are postulated to exist, plus the fact that the God that does exist may not yet have been "discovered" as such, you're just as likely to go to Hell as I am.

Even if you manage to pick the right God, you're still making the assumption that he will reward your wishy-washy, may-as-well belief. Seems to me that any God who rewards that kind of belief isn't worth worshipping.

On top of all this, you're also assuming that God won't reward a solid, intellectually-based disbelief. There's nothing inherently wrong with depending on a materialist outlook on life, which manifestly doesn't support the idea of a deity.

Finally, of course, if you worship an omniscient creator-God, you have to accept that everything you do is predetermined anyway, and that your final destination was set aeons before you were even concieved.

Pascal's Wager is horrifically flawed, and based on a hopelessly two-dimensional view of reality (and, indeed, surreality).

#589 Antivenin

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 01:18 AM

Most religions (if not all; I haven't researched all of them) believe that God is one being, which might appear in different forms (Christianity = the trinity, etc). So when I talk about God I'm not talking about a God, but THE God, if that makes sense. The being.

Seems to me that any God who rewards that kind of belief isn't worth worshipping.

That would then be your opinion. I don't 'worship' God, btw. I just keep him in mind. As someone who watches over me, so the bad times don't seem that bad, and so I have that "beacon of hope".

On top of all this, you're also assuming that God won't reward a solid, intellectually-based disbelief.

He might reward said disbelief, but I'm not prepared to wager on it, because it does not seem likely to me.

Finally, of course, if you worship an omniscient creator-God, you have to accept that everything you do is predetermined anyway, and that your final destination was set aeons before you were even concieved.

No, my view here is slightly skewed. I don't think destiny is predetermined.

#590 redlion

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 01:46 AM

Problem being, of course, that it doesn't account for the possibility of choosing the wrong God.
In which case, and assuming that Gods don't take belief in the wrong God in credit, you're still not assured "eternal happiness".

In fact, given the sheer number of Gods that are postulated to exist, plus the fact that the God that does exist may not yet have been "discovered" as such, you're just as likely to go to Hell as I am.

Even if you manage to pick the right God, you're still making the assumption that he will reward your wishy-washy, may-as-well belief. Seems to me that any God who rewards that kind of belief isn't worth worshipping.

On top of all this, you're also assuming that God won't reward a solid, intellectually-based disbelief. There's nothing inherently wrong with depending on a materialist outlook on life, which manifestly doesn't support the idea of a deity.

Finally, of course, if you worship an omniscient creator-God, you have to accept that everything you do is predetermined anyway, and that your final destination was set aeons before you were even concieved.

Pascal's Wager is horrifically flawed, and based on a hopelessly two-dimensional view of reality (and, indeed, surreality).

A+ sir!

You didn't need to bring up predestination though.

Most religions (if not all; I haven't researched all of them) believe that God is one being, which might appear in different forms (Christianity = the trinity, etc). So when I talk about God I'm not talking about a God, but THE God, if that makes sense. The being.

That would then be your opinion. I don't 'worship' God, btw. I just keep him in mind. As someone who watches over me, so the bad times don't seem that bad, and so I have that "beacon of hope".

He might reward said disbelief, but I'm not prepared to wager on it, because it does not seem likely to me.

No, my view here is slightly skewed. I don't think destiny is predetermined.

Okay, first, it's incorrect to say that 'most' religions are monotheist. So many aren't.

Second, the fact that you're Christian and your 'a god' is 'the God' doesn't change the fact that Pascal's Wager is a deist proposition, and not a Christian one. You could use Pascal's wager (similarly to your use) to justify a druidic religion, or the myriad pantheons of china, india, or buddhism. However the use of the Wager in any of these situations would be flawed because of all the reasons Sweeney listed. Picking the right god, believing in him correctly, and worshiping him correctly (if applicable), are simply impossible tasks, given the possibilities. How could a creator ever expect his smartest creations to pick?

Believing in the right god isn't as important as having true beliefs. Likewise the point of your life isn't to reach some higher plane, but to make the most of your time while you're here. Your beacon of hope should not be an invisible man in the sky, but your invisible mind, capable of endless thought.

Besides, gods are just symbols. They are manifestations of archetypes, in the greatest way. Theirs are principles that others would devote their lives to, which is admirable in a way. But all the same, I'd rather be baptized under Loki or Fenrir than the One True God. Get some character and personality in my supranatural beings.

#591 Antivenin

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:18 AM

I'm not Christian actually. I'm sort of pseudo-Hindu. Anyway.

Most polytheist religions too say its enough to believe in a "supreme being" / God (they each have their own rituals). The question of a right God really doesn't come into play then. And if I'm wrong and you're right, and I'm somehow believing in some wrong God, then I want to have that, "Hey, at least I tried" card in my hand. Sounds odd, but there you go.

But all the same, I'd rather be baptized under Loki or Fenrir than the One True God. Get some character and personality in my supranatural beings.

Again, opinion.

#592 Sweeney

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 03:59 AM

There's one other thing that I missed out.
If you spend your life believing in a God, and that belief stops you from doing things that you would otherwise want to do, or forces you to spend time doing things you don't want to do, then you've suffered a disadvantage that the atheist does not, if that belief is incorrect.
Especially if those devotions cause you to waste huge amounts of your one and only existence.

I cannot believe that a faith based on "I believe in you so that I can get into heaven, but not really because you're a waste of my time, but I am I promise" is any kind of virtue.
It's just... shit.

And finally, if Pascal's Wager is the reason you believe in God, how did you come to base your faith on Hinduism?

EDIT: One last bit; I'm not trying, here, to prove your faith wrong. I'm simply saying that Pascal's Wager is an irreperably flawed argument, and an abysmal reason for believing in anything.

Most polytheist religions too say its enough to believe in a "supreme being" / God (they each have their own rituals). The question of a right God really doesn't come into play then.

Even if that were true, which is dubious at best, I fail to see the relevance.
If the religion rewards faith in the wrong thing, then they're judging by intention, and not by result.
In which case, not even-minded deity could condemn me to Hell simply because I found the arguments for deific existence unconvincing.

#593 Antivenin

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 07:57 AM

I was born Hindu. The Hindu scriptures (sort of a Bible) don't try to prove God exists, they just describe him. Consequently, its sort of left up to the person reading them to make that decision for himself. In my case, I believe in God because by all accounts belief (and belief only) in God is most important. Everything else comes next. This is true in many religions, and especially the major ones (Islam, Christianity, Hinduism).

If you spend your life believing in a God, and that belief stops you from doing things that you would otherwise want to do, or forces you to spend time doing things you don't want to do, then you've suffered a disadvantage that the atheist does not, if that belief is incorrect.

Well yes. Hence the wager. I'm essentially betting that God exists.

EDIT: Just realized, that sounds very odd. Its becoming increasingly hard to explain my view, and I'm becoming incoherent. Never mind, I'm out of this discussion.

Edited by Antivenin, 25 June 2010 - 11:39 AM.


#594 Jake

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:17 PM

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#595 Sweeney

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:19 PM

I was born Hindu.

The crux of the matter. 90% (not a statistically supported figure, a guess) of people follow the religion they are born into. This should tell you something.

The Hindu scriptures (sort of a Bible) don't try to prove God exists, they just describe him. Consequently, its sort of left up to the person reading them to make that decision for himself. In my case, I believe in God because by all accounts belief (and belief only) in God is most important. Everything else comes next. This is true in many religions, and especially the major ones (Islam, Christianity, Hinduism).

That's psychology for you. They describe him as if he exists. If that's not "trying to prove that he exists", I don't know what is.

Well yes. Hence the wager. I'm essentially betting that God exists.

Pascal's argument was that the Wager is essentially a proposition which it was impossible to lose. Which is wrong, as stated over and again above.

EDIT: Just realized, that sounds very odd. Its becoming increasingly hard to explain my view, and I'm becoming incoherent. Never mind, I'm out of this discussion.

Yes.
That's because your position is actually intellectually untenable. That's why you can't support it.

#596 Warriors

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:32 PM

Lee, my first point was that atheism wouldn't render the world into a state of disarray. Not that atheists are better people.
My second point was that morality isn't based on God.
My third point was that there's no discernible difference that believing in an afterlife has on crime.

All of these points I made, and I made well, and none of them are refuted by your counter points.
Next time you try to tear down my logic, at least make sure you're deconstructing them from the correct perspective.


Pascal's Wager?
Are you serious?

That's almost as bad as being convinced by Paley's Wristwatch.


Hahahaha...Paley's Wristwatch...I giggled at that.

#597 Xerous

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:47 PM

One can wonder how can one not believe in something that doesn't exist?

#598 Sweeney

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 10:32 PM

One can wonder how can one not believe in something that doesn't exist?

Sounds clever, but isn't.

Everyone doesn't believe in things that don't actually exist, because things that don't exist can be conceptualised, but still understood to be non-real, by anyone with half an ounce of rationality.

#599 Xerous

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 11:43 PM

There's one other thing that I missed out.
If you spend your life believing in a God, and that belief stops you from doing things that you would otherwise want to do, or forces you to spend time doing things you don't want to do, then you've suffered a disadvantage that the atheist does not, if that belief is incorrect.
Especially if those devotions cause you to waste huge amounts of your one and only existence.

i'm pretty sure religion doesn't stop people from things or force people since it's the persons choice. I also do not comprehend how you can claim that they're waisting huge amounts of their existence considering it's what they love and enjoy.

#600 Sweeney

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 01:40 AM

i'm pretty sure religion doesn't stop people from things or force people since it's the persons choice. I also do not comprehend how you can claim that they're waisting huge amounts of their existence considering it's what they love and enjoy.

Ah, yes. Of course.
Every religious person has chosen their exact religion out of choice, entirely uncoerced.

You're disgustingly naive.


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