1730 replies to this topic

[Sweeney]

you'll have to point out the logical fallacy and show how it's a logical fallacy otherwise you just seem lazy. How can I put things in a nutshell when you've asked about the infallibility of the Qur'an. Take it or reject it, no compulsion.

I can summarise your post for you, if you like:
"People can't imagine how humans could have written something so beautiful, so it must be divine".

That is an argument from incredulity. I did point out the fallacy; it is your entire post.

To continue the discussion, I'd appreciate it if you answered this question briefly and concisely.
If there was shown to be a scientific error in the Koran, would you reevaluate your position on its infallibility?

[TigerWoods]

The Quran and hadith are sufficient enough for me in my understanding of life. If science were to contradict the Quran I have no shame in saying it was the science that errored. The Quran has far too many historical and scientific accuracies for me to reevaluate my position. It's eloquent recitation is enough for me to submit as a Muslim. I am not a skeptic. Everyday I keep in mind that I have an appointed time for death and this is enough to humble myself after coming across this Quran. Why spend life living with a big ego, skepticism and insincerity for understanding when I can be Muslim. Simple enough?

If you are going to quote material you have found from other skeptics and not from your own finding, I wouldn't be surprised. Just keep in mind if you are going to do so, bring forth the arabic text and show how this is the case. 1 word in arabic is worth a thousand pictures and your lack of understanding will most likely lead you to quoting the english translation (which is not the Quran). Don't go to Non-Muslims for information on Islam, you only mislead yourself.

[Jake]

Why spend life wasting time with religion? If perhaps you want a better after life or or resurrected life, you should try living your current one better.

[Sweeney]

The Quran and hadith are sufficient enough for me in my understanding of life. If science were to contradict the Quran I have no shame in saying it was the science that errored. The Quran has far too many historical and scientific accuracies for me to reevaluate my position. It's eloquent recitation is enough for me to submit as a Muslim. I am not a skeptic. Everyday I keep in mind that I have an appointed time for death and this is enough to humble myself after coming across this Quran. Why spend life living with a big ego, skepticism and insincerity for understanding when I can be Muslim. Simple enough?

If you are going to quote material you have found from other skeptics and not from your own finding, I wouldn't be surprised. Just keep in mind if you are going to do so, bring forth the arabic text and show how this is the case. 1 word in arabic is worth a thousand pictures and your lack of understanding will most likely lead you to quoting the english translation (which is not the Quran). Don't go to Non-Muslims for information on Islam, you only mislead yourself.

You've just said that if I show the Koran to be fallible, you'll ignore it.
What kind of a way to live is that?

[TigerWoods]

You've just said that if I show the Koran to be fallible, you'll ignore it.
What kind of a way to live is that?

That's not true at all, please don't put words in my mouth. What I did do though was make a distinction between the Qur'an and science. I uphold the Qur'an at a higher status than science because it came from the Creator who knows best about His creation. Science is a field that constantly progresses and is open to many error and correction. Yet by your misconception of my statement you are indirectly claiming it is infallible. Now I'm no skeptic but as a secular thinker shouldn't you hold yourself under the same scrutiny?

Proving the Quran is fallible is something you cannot do. Any 3rd party claims you can gather from atheists, evangelists, ex-muslims etc. have already been refuted by Islamic scholars. Your ignorance of Islam allows me to assume that you will either bring forth a misconception from a translated text or present an already refuted argument. Please have the intellectual humility before trying to prove something is wrong without carefully considering it. Especially when you don't know anything about it yourself. Try asking questions and learning more before being a skeptic.

Why spend life wasting time with religion? If perhaps you want a better after life or or resurrected life, you should try living your current one better.

It isn't a waste of time for me Jake, I am content with the Islamic lifestyle. It improves me as a person, and this is from my own experience so it isn't something you can argue against. If you wanted examples I can provide many.

[Mr. Hobo]

Since you like quotes from the Koran:

5:51 "Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them."

8:39 "Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah."

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her.

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . .

[TigerWoods]

http://www.islamonli...2#ixzz0wK0IboYW

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34770

http://www.answering...n_witnesses.htm

http://www.answering..._quran_4_34.htm

2:228:
http://www.answering...omen_daraja.htm



annotated bible skeptics?

[Mr. Hobo]

From the second link:

They are not to be forced, rather they are to be given the choice between becoming Muslim or paying the jizyah.

Some of the scholars are of the view that others may also be given the choice between Islam and jizyah, but the most correct view is that no others should be given this choice, rather these three groups are the only ones who may be given the choice, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fought the kuffaar in the Arabian Peninsula and he only accepted their becoming Muslim.

“But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

He did not say, “if they pay the jizyah”. The Jews, Christians and Magians are to be asked to enter Islam; if they refuse then they should be asked to pay the jizyah. If they refuse to pay the jizyah then the Muslims must fight them if they are able to do so. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

Starts off by saying that they aren't to be forced and then roughly 0 words later, lists the 2 choices they are forced to chose from. But then he says that this is no longer applicable and the two choices become either convert or die. And then he goes on to lists more quotes saying that they should be converted or killed and then says "These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim. " What the fuck? I fail to see how this helps you at all?

Third link:

the intellectual status of a Muslim woman is neither marred nor degraded by the commandment that if two Muslim male witnesses are not available then one Muslim male and two Muslim females should be invited to witness. Rather, this injunction is in perfect harmony with the nature and psychology of the woman as will become evident through quotations from psychologists, psychiatrists and medical research.

My thoughts were "this is gonna be good"

It is in light of the above findings of psychologist, psychiatrists and researchers that the saying of Allaah, the Exalted:

And get two witnesses of your own men, and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as you choose for witnesses –so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her Baqarah 2:182

can be understood. One must also bear in mind that forgetfulness can be an asset. A woman has to be put up with children presenting all kinds of emotional problems and a woman is certainly known to be more resilient than man. The aim of presenting these research findings on a number of aspects related with the theme is to indicate that a woman by her biological constitution faces such problems. It does not however make her inferior to man but it does illustrate that she is different. Viewed in this way, it can only lead one to the conclusion that Allaah knows His creation the best and has prescribed precise laws in keeping with the nature of humankind.

And my thoughts were right. Reading stuff by patronizing and chauvinistic men trying to give the above phrases an egalitarian spin is very amusing

Fourth link pretty much argues about translation problems, basically meaning if people want to use it to justify their violence they can/will/have. and if people want to translate it in such a way that it's more egalitarian they can/will/have.

And final article

The long history of humanity did not witness women prophets. It would be absurd to ascribe this to male self-imposed supremacy or coercion. Rather one should ask: Why did Allah exclusively send His messages through men, unless this is His will and the norms of His creation.

The emotional character of women, their motherly instinct, and their basically tender, compassionate nature qualify them for their vital roles as careful mothers, affectionate wives, daughters, and sisters. Such roles are essential to form happy households, to raise healthy generations, and to create a closely-knit society.

Equally, men bear the major responsibility of earning for a living, harnessing and developing the resources of the earth, facing life hardships, and defending his family and the community against dangers

As I said before, reading stuff by patronizing and chauvinistic men trying to give the above phrases an egalitarian spin is very amusing.

I'm pretty sure I got the majority of the quotes from the Skeptics Annotated Bible but I'm not sure as they are just sitting around in a text file on my computer

[Sweeney]

Please not that I'm not trying to prove the Koran incorrect. I'm simply pointing out that you believe that it is beyond human scrutiny.

I'm sorry, but to hold something in that kind of regard is patently absurd.

[TigerWoods]

Starts off by saying that they aren't to be forced and then roughly 0 words later, lists the 2 choices they are forced to chose from. But then he says that this is no longer applicable and the two choices become either convert or die. And then he goes on to lists more quotes saying that they should be converted or killed and then says "These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim. " What the fuck? I fail to see how this helps you at all?

No, what the link did was give you the different positions among the scholars. Two choices to choose from, become Muslim or pay the Jizya. You have taxes in your country do you not? The Muslims aren't exempt of paying Zakat to the state which is charity (which varies according to ones income). In the Muslim world, Islam is the politics. It has it's own system. What gave you the idea that I was trying to appease you? I could care less about your opinions, just remember there's 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet (and still growing rapidly), if you choose to limit your understanding on Islam that is solely your decision. At least those links had arguments and sources.

I'm sorry, but to hold something in that kind of regard is patently absurd.

Waking up every morning, looking in the mirror and experiencing existence knowing you will at some point die and not bothering to know if you have a purpose is more absurd in my view. What's with the opinions? no one cares

Here's another thing for you to consider


We brought the tribe of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his troops pursued them out of tyranny and enmity. Then, when he was on the point of drowning, he [Pharaoh] said: "I believe that there is no god but Him in Whom the tribe of Israel believes. I am one of the Muslims." (Qur'an, 10:90)

"What, now! When previously you rebelled and were one of the corrupters? Today we will preserve your body so you can be a Sign for people who come after you. Surely many people are heedless of Our Signs." (Qur'an, 10:91-92)


"Research Professor Atlético continued until the final hours of the night, the final results appeared; salt remains after hours of research on the Pharaoh's body was discovered evidence that he was drowned in the sea and has died after his body out to preserve the body from the sea, the mummies have. But strange problem and what surprise too was Professor Atlético This was how the body remains healthier than other bodies, while the body is drawn out from the sea. "


source: http://www.allvoices...-moses-pbuh?r=1
videos:
http://www.metacafe....nd_yusuf_estes/

This Pharaoh was brought on tour all over the world and now resides in a British Museum.

Edited by TigerWoods, 11 August 2010 - 04:40 PM.

[Sweeney]

Waking up every morning, looking in the mirror and experiencing existence knowing you will at some point die and not bothering to know if you have a purpose is more absurd in my view.

No, because you don't know that you have a purpose.
You're guessing.

You've just said to me that the Koran is beyond scrutiny; implying that it's beyond human ability to decide its truthfulness.
You have no special knowledge. All you have is a comforting assumption.

[Finale]

Why spend life wasting time with religion? If perhaps you want a better after life or or resurrected life, you should try living your current one better.

Your statement doesn't make sense Jake. Read the last sentence...... lol

[ If perhaps you want a better after life or resurrected life, you should try living your current one better] There are 3 things wrong with your statement.

A. What are you basing a better after life theory on? Tiger has proof on after life and you don't. Furthermore, his proof that the holy Quran is the truth is being fully supported by your modern american scientists.
These scientists ,which i assume, have more education in their field then you. Do you know, why these scientists are bewildered? Do you know why Islam is the fastest growing religion? Many of these things you will never find out Jake, because you choose to let people choose what "Islam" is for you. In other words, you are following the crowd, propaganda.

B. "You should try living your current one better?" - ... lol I don't know whats more funny... that you are on the brink of believing there is an after life and that life has a purpose. or that you have zero knowledge of Islam. News Flash. What does living better mean to you? Live for yourself ONLY or living for others? Islam is a religion where we worship one god and put no partners to our one god. We are commanded to pray 5 times a day, do righteous good deeds for ourselves, and constantly better our lives and avoid evil things the best we can. (evil things meaning " Interest = usury" " Alcohol " and much more).

So a Muslim is commanded to: Pray 5 times a day being grateful for every blessing we receive. We give charity. We eat, we play sports, we get married, have children. We do many things that are good and avoid bad things the best we can. And if we do bad or fall into the wrong path, we ask Allah(swt) for forgiveness.

So my question to you , How can you live a better life then that? Sure there are extremists (which every religion has) and people that dont' follow it Islam fully. But that is no reason to judge a beautiful religion based on a few human beings.

C. Like many atheists.... you are assuming. Which atheists are so good at. You are answering his questions based on little knowledge that you have about Islam. And its not just you, a majority of you atheists do this. It's like you want to discuss Islam, but you don't want to read the Holy Quran to strengthen any arguments you have against us. Mr.Hobo have you read all 114 surah's from an actual athentic Holy Quran with English Translations?





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, because you don't know that you have a purpose.
You're guessing.

You've just said to me that the Koran is beyond scrutiny; implying that it's beyond human ability to decide its truthfulness.
You have no special knowledge. All you have is a comforting assumption.

I Love you Atheists...... You just make me laugh and feel all giddy inside. For real, he has a book that has ZERO contradictions. That has all sorts of proof from historical to scientific. Something that can not be found in any other Holy book that exists. Further More, The holy Quran, speaks of the past Holy books (Torah, and Injeel (Bible)) Something the previous books don't speak off. In Islam, we are forbidden to follow things blindly. (Blind Faith) That is why there is proof after proof after proof in the holy quran. Anyone that is open minded and has common sense, would understand there is something strange and interesting about it.

The Holy Quran and the Sunnahs of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) tells Muslims : What will happen when one dies. What to do before one dies. What the trials are in the grave. what the trials of the final day is. Description of Junnah and Nar. (Paradise, and Hell). And The Mercy and the names of our creator Allah (swt).

As for you Sweeney: You don't know what will happen tomorrow. You don't know when you will die. You don't know whats after this life with certainty. You don't know anything past your breathing and living. Your aging , and eventually you will be on your death bed wondering whats next. Furthermore, if you did know something was going to happen, you wouldn't have any historical proof or scientific that would support your prediction.

I accuse you atheists of being Discriminative. Yes! I said it. Discriminative? To whom you ask? To Science! Yes, you are discriminative to your one ally , that you trust more then anything. The same Ally that convinced you, you have a brain (even though you didn't see it with your eyes.) The Same Ally that has proven countless matters, and continues to prove and disapprove things around you. In other words.... your safety net.



Now what makes you discriminative you ask? The simple fact that you agree with science until science agrees that there is a creator/god. Once science makes the agreement, Lo and behold you aren't friends with Science anymore.... How about that? Am i right? Am i right? Okay i'll give you an easy example for your simple minds.





Atheist Explanation 1:

Fear = Caused by chemicals in the brain = Brain = Product of knowledge of Biology = Biology = Science
This example can be used with any feelings that one feels. For Atheists it comes back to science.


*Note* Atheists use this little trick, every time one mentions we have fear for a reason. They try to prove the natural origin of why the body does that through science, which is good. They are using LOGIC to try and eliminate "reason" . However by using this logic, they contradict themselves. Because The same knowledge the proves you have a brain also proofs that there is a creator/god.


Atheist Explanation 2:

Human Embryology in the Holy Quran = Verses in detail about phases of Human Embryo = Biology/Science

Darkness of the waves in the Holy Quran = Verses in detail about The deepness of the ocean = Oceanagraphy/Science

Description of barrier between bodies of water in the holy Quran = Verses in detail about mingling of two bodies of water = Oceanagraphy/Science

Description of the frontal Lobe of the human brain in the holy Quran = Verses in detail that speak of functions of Frontal Lobe = Biology/Science



The logic to this discussion is that, If you believe in the Science that says you have a brain, then what is keeping you from believing the scientific proofs in the Holy Quran, that no other book has? Scientists have even mentioned that, the way it was described, could not have come from a human during that time. Nor did they have the technology to study the Phases of an Embryo. Or Go deep into the ocean to describe the clouds and darkness of colors in the ocean. Or describe the functions of the frontal lobe of the human brain.


I'm not trying to convert any of you. I'm just saying, you guys have no idea what the holy Quran is, and what lies in it. If you truly want to know , if a god exists. Then just seek knowledge. Go through every religion and figure out the pros and cons, and contradictions and such. Don't sit around arguing against people that there is no creator, when you don't have knowledge of their religion.

It's called "Fitra" in Islam, its the natural force that drives you to seek what created you. Which is the main reason, why we have discussions about this and why many people take interest in talking about the origin of mankind.


=) Peace

Edited by Finale, 12 August 2010 - 12:56 AM.

[TigerWoods]

No, because you don't know that you have a purpose.
You're guessing.

You've just said to me that the Koran is beyond scrutiny; implying that it's beyond human ability to decide its truthfulness.
You have no special knowledge. All you have is a comforting assumption.

Come back when you have more than a double standard.

Edited by TigerWoods, 12 August 2010 - 12:57 AM.

[Noitidart]

Holy hell we have some intense replies in here.

Like wow.

[SamTheMan]

I hate when people classify other people as Atheist's if they dont agree with a certain religion. I don't agree with Islam or Christianity but i'm not Atheist. I'm Agnostic. I dunno about Sweeney, but seriously, just because somebody doesn't agree with your religion doesn't make them an Atheist.

Edited by Samtheman25, 12 August 2010 - 01:40 AM.

[Noitidart]

That's true they can be agnostic. They're probably using that word in place of "non-religious" or "a science person"

[SamTheMan]

Well yeah, I'm Agnostic and the way I look at it is everything I see points against Heaven and Hell however if there was then cool but nobody living on this world will ever know.

[Noitidart]

That's cool man. It would be awesome if you could explain the difference between agnostic and atheist. I for one don't know and am busy coding, otherwise i would go look up.

[SamTheMan]

Simply put Atheist means you know for sure there's no God, no Heaven, no Hell, no afterlife basically. Just like the opposite of Christianity or Islam. Agnostic means you are in the middle. Not really sure about religion. But I mean all religion and science aside, if you just use logic, nobody can know if there is a God, which is basically Agnosticism. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong

Edited by Samtheman25, 12 August 2010 - 02:06 AM.

[Sweeney]

Come back when you have more than a double standard.

Explain to me where the double standard lies?

Either the Koran is beyond scrutiny, so that you must accept it on faith, or;
The Koran can be subject to analysis, and any fault would disprove its infallibility.

Note, again, that I'm not suggesting or implying that the Koran contains faults. It is merely a hypothetical experiment.

Simply put Atheist means you know for sure there's no God, no Heaven, no Hell, no afterlife basically. Just like the opposite of Christianity or Islam. Agnostic means you are in the middle. Not really sure about religion. But I mean all religion and science aside, if you just use logic, nobody can know if there is a God, which is basically Agnosticism. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong

I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
Atheist and Agnostic aren't different levels of belief.
Theist/Atheist are the statements of position: acceptance of God, or not.
Gnostic/Agnostic are statements of knowledge: Knowing, or not.

Most theists are gnostic theists; they claim to know that there is a God (or more than one).
By comparison, most atheists are agnostic; they don't claim to know that there is no God, simply that there probably isn't, but we can't know for sure.

Holding a gnostic position on either side of the fence is equally irrational.

[SamTheMan]

I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
Atheist and Agnostic aren't different levels of belief.
Theist/Atheist are the statements of position: acceptance of God, or not.
Gnostic/Agnostic are statements of knowledge: Knowing, or not.

Most theists are gnostic theists; they claim to know that there is a God (or more than one).
By comparison, most atheists are agnostic; they don't claim to know that there is no God, simply that there probably isn't, but we can't know for sure.

Holding a gnostic position on either side of the fence is equally irrational.

Okay, but I consider myself Agnostic. That I don't know for sure. That doesn't also make me an Atheist does it? Sorry if I sound ignorant. I'm still trying to figure things out on my own as I'm not like most people my age who are told what to believe by their parents

[Sweeney]

Okay, but I consider myself Agnostic. That I don't know for sure. That doesn't also make me an Atheist does it? Sorry if I sound ignorant. I'm still trying to figure things out on my own as I'm not like most people my age who are told what to believe by their parents

It depends if you live life as if there is a god, or not.
If you don't believe there is a god, you're an atheist.

[SamTheMan]

It depends if you live life as if there is a god, or not.
If you don't believe there is a god, you're an atheist.

I live life as if what I do while I'm alive is more important than worshiping something that may or may not be real

[Sweeney]

I live life as if what I do while I'm alive is more important than worshiping something that may or may not be real

Then you're an atheist

[SamTheMan]

Damn, I guess I should read up on stuff more
But yeah, I understand your logic.