1730 replies to this topic

[Nunc]

So monotheism has been the dominant religious approach over the last 1000 years or so and it's "longer-lasting and more powerful" than all of the various beliefs over the rest of human history? Intriguing...

It's defeated all the rest, so I think it is better. At least now, and perhaps in the past too. But I can't tell the future, maybe we'll go back to polytheism for some reason

That's not just what I believe. It's the prevailing moral concensus.

We'll the majority isn't always right, as I'm sure you know. Morals change, mores change, societies change. What may be the most-widely known 'truth' one moment may be laughed at and mocked in the next. The "prevailing moral consensus" has swung widely over the years, Mr. Sweeney, and I don't think it's any more likely to be 'right' now than a thousand years ago.

Edited by Nunc, 30 December 2010 - 03:49 PM.

[Sweeney]

We'll the majority isn't always right, as I'm sure you know. Morals change, mores change, societies change. What may be the most-widely known 'truth' one moment may be laughed at and mocked in the next. The prevailing moral consensus has swung widely over the years, Mr. Sweeney, and I don't think it's any more likely to be 'right' now than a thousand years ago.

True, but then simply being in the minority is no reason to rest assured of your correctness, either.
You also have to have a rigorous underpinning for your beliefs, something that you are still yet to unveil.
I'm beginning to think there's nothing there at all.

Giving up on the natural front? You could at least have the courtesy to admit you were hopelessly wrong...

[luvsmyncis]

So monotheism has been the dominant religious approach over the last 1000 years or so and it's "longer-lasting and more powerful" than all of the various beliefs over the rest of human history? Intriguing...

Nevermind those Gods that had animal heads that people believed in for thousands of years, Jesus is what's in now-a-days. It's like Elvis vs Bieber. 

[Waser Lave]

It's defeated all the rest, so I think it is better. At least now, and perhaps in the past too. But I can't tell the future, maybe we'll go back to polytheism for some reason

How can it have defeated them when it never competed directly with them in the first place...?

If you class Hinduism as polytheistic then there's over a billion believers in polytheism in that single religion, then you've got various folk religions and pagan beliefs which together probably add around another half a billion people. So by my very, very rough calculations that's around one fifth of the world's population which are yet to have been 'defeated' by monotheism.

Nevermind those Gods that had animal heads that people believed in for thousands of years, Jesus is what's in now-a-days. It's like Elvis vs Bieber.

Elvis was a bit shit to be fair...

[Nunc]

True, but then simply being in the minority is no reason to rest assured of your correctness, either.
You also have to have a rigorous underpinning for your beliefs, something that you are still yet to unveil.
I'm beginning to think there's nothing there at all.

Giving up on the natural front? You could at least have the courtesy to admit you were hopelessly wrong...

I hardly consider myself in the minority either though. I try to avoid both sides of the debate usually. It gets lonely in the middle sometimes though xD

I'm sorry, but when I get three or four responses to a post arguing long-windedly with me it's hard to keep track of everything. I really think that this whole 'intelligence' thinkg is over-rated at least now. I really think we should never have embarked on the industrial revolution; it's made life a lot more boring. But whatevs, if you want me to concede the point I will, it's not the crux of my argument and it is admittably hard to keep up replying to you, as you're my most active detractant.

How can it have defeated them when it never competed directly with them in the first place...?

If you class Hinduism as polytheistic then there's over a billion believers in polytheism in that single religion, then you've got various folk religions and pagan beliefs which together probably add around another half a billion people. So by my very, very rough calculations that's around one fifth of the world's population which are yet to have been 'defeated' by monotheism.

Yup. But people convert to the other religions from the weak polytheisms all the time, especially christianity because of its missionary activities. Meanwhile barely anyone converts to shamanism/animism/whatever. So they are in conflict, in a roundabout way, and monotheism's winning out.

[Sweeney]

I hardly consider myself in the minority either though. I try to avoid both sides of the debate usually. It gets lonely in the middle sometimes though xD

I'm sorry, but when I get three or four responses to a post arguing long-windedly with me it's hard to keep track of everything. I really think that this whole 'intelligence' thinkg is over-rated at least now. I really think we should never have embarked on the industrial revolution; it's made life a lot more boring. But whatevs, if you want me to concede the point I will, it's not the crux of my argument and it is admittably hard to keep up replying to you, as you're my most active detractant.

How can you be in the middle of the issue of vast sweeping generalisations based on no evidence... either you think you're a bigot, or you don't.
And I think it's pretty clear what you think.
Your sudden regression to the "middle ground" is cowardly, and pathetic.

Made life more boring? Maybe you just need to sort your own life out, and stop worrying about everyone elses. I doubt there are many people who would rather go back to a pre-industrial era. Especially since most of them would simply be dead.
Regardless, if it's got nothing to do with your arguments, maybe you shouldn't bring it up. Using such a rehashed, tired old fallacy just makes you look like an ignorant fool.

[Nunc]

How can you be in the middle of the issue of vast sweeping generalisations based on no evidence... either you think you're a bigot, or you don't.
And I think it's pretty clear what you think.
Your sudden regression to the "middle ground" is cowardly, and pathetic.


Made life more boring? Maybe you just need to sort your own life out, and stop worrying about everyone elses. I doubt there are many people who would rather go back to a pre-industrial era. Especially since most of them would simply be dead.
Regardless, if it's got nothing to do with your arguments, maybe you shouldn't bring it up. Using such a rehashed, tired old falacy just makes you look like an ignorant fool.

Mr. Sweeney, you're definitely a #13 atheist


So you try to englighten people to your own beliefs? Force them to accept you as an 'individual' and a 'free-thinker 'despite the fact that you are exactly like, even down to your very arguments to every other liberal atheist I've met? Alright, it's your choice. You are after all very virulent and fierce debater.

So do what you want with your life. I wash my hands of this matter.

Edited by Nunc, 30 December 2010 - 04:20 PM.

[Ali]

Mr. Sweeney, you're definitely a #13 atheist


So you try to englighten people to your own beliefs? Force them to accept you as an 'individual' and a 'free-thinker 'despite the fact that you are exactly like, even down to your very arguments to every other liberal atheist I've met? Alright, it's your choice. You are after all very virulent and fierce debater.

So do what you want with your life. I wash my hands of this matter.

I don't think it has much to do with atheism...I'm not an atheist and yet I'll argue that most of us wouldn't want to be pre-industrial revolution. I'd be dead several times over for one thing...

[Sweeney]

Mr. Sweeney, you're definitely a #13 atheist

So you try to englighten people to your own beliefs? Force them to accept you as an 'individual' and a 'free-thinker 'despite the fact that you are exactly like, even down to your very arguments to every other liberal atheist I've met? Alright, it's your choice. You are after all very virulent and fierce debater.

So do what you want with your life. I was my hands of you.

I assume this blatently off-topic personal attack is an admission that you, in fact, don't have anything to back up your bigoted view of the people of the world?

And you have the gall to call me pretentious.

[luvsmyncis]

 

I wash my hands of this matter.

K thanks, Pilate.

[Nunc]

I assume this blatently off-topic personal attack is an admission that you, in fact, don't have anything to back up your bigoted view of the people of the world?

And you have the gall to call me pretentious.

If I had temerity and arrogance such as you do, and tons of free time, I'd go back and collate all of your many, very many personal insults against me.
But I don't, because I'm a better person than you. Among other reasons.

Goodbye mr. sweeney. I've seen that most codexians don't act like you, thank god.

[Sweeney]

If I had temerity and arrogance such as you do, and tons of free time, I'd go back and collate all of your many, very many personal insults against me.
But I don't, because I'm a better person than you. Among other reasons.

Goodbye mr. sweeney. I've seen that most codexians don't act like you, thank god.

And this is why I never say I'm leaving a conversation unless I mean it.
What happened to washing your hands?

PS. I thought all atheists were ranked exactly the same?

[Whyumad]

And this is why I never say I'm leaving a conversation unless I mean it.
What happened to washing your hands?

PS. I thought all atheists were ranked exactly the same?

Well I only quoted one, but this is for your previous couple of posts. I just grew more respect for your nature of posting.
+1 Rep

[BERRIES]

I don't really believe in God.. But I believe in Karma and balance in life. What physical proof is there to show that God has helped us in anyway? I think that believing in him, causes a psychological effect that makes us feel optimistic and that way, bring up our spirits and help us get through our obstacles.

[Inver]

I wish I did... personally I'm an atheist but theists are far superior to most atheists- most religous people (with the exception of Jews IMO) aren't pretentious, stuck up smart-asses.

Wow. That was a lot of generalizing to take in. Atheists like you give the rest of us a bad name. I guess the Jews had it coming then...

EDIT - Man... late to the belittling party again... *huff*

Edited by 64th, 03 January 2011 - 08:41 PM.

[Dayzee]

I believe in God, and Jesus, and salvation.

[Sweeney]

I believe in God, and Jesus, and salvation.

Can you define exactly what any of those things actually mean, in a meaningful way, that isn't self-referencing?

[systray]

Can you define exactly what any of those things actually mean, in a meaningful way, that isn't self-referencing?

That's hard to do for anyone really. Try explaining the plot and significance of the important plot devices in your favorite book/movie to someone who hasn't read/seen it. It doesn't work, and therefore anything you say will be meaningless. I'm agnostic, and very skeptical about the entire idea of organized religion, but asking someone to explain the meaning to you almost defeats the purpose as far as I can tell. Faith in the ideas behind it allow you to create your own meaning and adapt it to fit you and your morals, just like why you love said book/movie from earlier.

[Dayzee]

That's hard to do for anyone really. Try explaining the plot and significance of the important plot devices in your favorite book/movie to someone who hasn't read/seen it. It doesn't work, and therefore anything you say will be meaningless. I'm agnostic, and very skeptical about the entire idea of organized religion, but asking someone to explain the meaning to you almost defeats the purpose as far as I can tell. Faith in the ideas behind it allow you to create your own meaning and adapt it to fit you and your morals, just like why you love said book/movie from earlier.

Yes, belief in ANYTHING comes through faith. I believe my mom is my birth mother because she says so and raised me, but if I questioned that I guess I could get a DNA test. But that would only prove useful if I believed in the validity of DNA testing, and so on. So yes, I believe because I have faith.

[Sweeney]

That's hard to do for anyone really. Try explaining the plot and significance of the important plot devices in your favorite book/movie to someone who hasn't read/seen it. It doesn't work, and therefore anything you say will be meaningless. I'm agnostic, and very skeptical about the entire idea of organized religion, but asking someone to explain the meaning to you almost defeats the purpose as far as I can tell. Faith in the ideas behind it allow you to create your own meaning and adapt it to fit you and your morals, just like why you love said book/movie from earlier.

Of course it works At the very least, you can give them the book.

But if you can't explain it, why should I accept that you understand it? If you can't explain it, how are we meant to have a meaningful discussion about it?

If you can't explain it, what possible reason is there for accepting it as true?!

[Dayzee]

Can you define exactly what any of those things actually mean, in a meaningful way, that isn't self-referencing?

I believe that God is the creator of the universe, and everything in it, including you and I. I believe Jesus is the son of God, God in human form that came and dwelt on earth so that man might know him and better understand him. I believe in salvation meaning that I believe in forgiveness of sins, and through this process of "cleansing" gaining eternal life in heaven.

Of course it works At the very least, you can give them the book.

But if you can't explain it, why should I accept that you understand it? If you can't explain it, how are we meant to have a meaningful discussion about it?

If you can't explain it, what possible reason is there for accepting it as true?!

What I can explain is my own experience, nothing more. Christ told Christians to be witnesses to the world. Being a witness is telling what you know. I can only tell you what I have experienced. In my own life, there have been several instances where "God showed up". What does that mean? It's been different each time, but extremely real. You can only accept what I tell you as true if you have faith that I'm not crazy and faith that I'm not a liar. Probably hard to do since you don't know me

I do believe in fairies! I do! I do!

Alas, believing something doesn't mean that something is true.

...and not believing in something doesn't make it not true!

[systray]

Probably hard to do since you don't know me

Also hard to do when you don't practice the same belief system. It would be really hard to convince someone who hasn't seen Star Wars that Luke was the Son of Darth Vader without using self-referencing logic...unless of course they have seen all the movies.

[Sweeney]

I believe that God is the creator of the universe, and everything in it, including you and I.

Ok, there's a start. How did God create the universe? Where does he live?

I believe Jesus is the son of God, God in human form that came and dwelt on earth so that man might know him and better understand him.

Good. How do you know that that is the case?

I believe in salvation meaning that I believe in forgiveness of sins, and through this process of "cleansing" gaining eternal life in heaven.

What do you believe heaven is? Precisely, I mean.
And what do you believe goes there when you die?
Do you also believe in Hell? If so, same questions to that.

What I can explain is my own experience, nothing more. Christ told Christians to be witnesses to the world. Being a witness is telling what you know. I can only tell you what I have experienced. In my own life, there have been several instances where "God showed up". What does that mean? It's been different each time, but extremely real. You can only accept what I tell you as true if you have faith that I'm not crazy and faith that I'm not a liar. Probably hard to do since you don't know me.

Really? I can explain lots more than my own experience. I can explain fusion in a star, something I've definitely never experienced. I can explain meiosis and mitosis, two things that I have never seen take place.
I don't need to have faith that you're not crazy. I can see that on this particular issue, your views are not in line with what reality presents, and that you are crazy.

One more question, is there any evidence that could come to light and change your mind about the existence of god?

Also hard to do when you don't practice the same belief system. It would be really hard to convince someone who hasn't seen Star Wars that Luke was the Son of Darth Vader without using self-referencing logic...unless of course they have seen all the movies.

Not at all.
I'm perfectly happy to accept that Jesus was the son of god, within the fictional framework of the Bible.
Just as any rational person would accept that Luke was the son of Anakin, within the fictional framework of Star Wars.

The problem comes, of course, when you start telling me the the Ewoks really did save the third moon of Endor. Really really.

[systray]

Not at all.
I'm perfectly happy to accept that Jesus was the son of god, within the fictional framework of the Bible.
Just as any rational person would accept that Luke was the son of Anakin, within the fictional framework of Star Wars.

The problem comes, of course, when you start telling me the the Ewoks really did save the third moon of Endor. Really really.

Fine. Fine. The problem there occurs in you calling (assuming) it fictional. I can say you fit into the fictional framework of your atomic universe theory. I'm not saying you're right, wrong, or in the middle, but when you assume you're right because you can use logic that fits your story but then you don't allow people to use logic that fits their story without calling it all fictional.

I can say your beliefs are fictional, and all your "scientific evidence" fits beautifully within the fictional framework of your world. Now where are we other than back where we started?

Edit: Not the best grammar and sentence structure, sorry. Still early haha

Edited by systray, 04 January 2011 - 07:57 AM.

[Sweeney]

Fine. Fine. The problem there occurs in you calling (assuming) it fictional. I can say you fit into the fictional framework of your atomic universe theory. I'm not saying you're right, wrong, or in the middle, but when you assume you're right because you can use logic that fits your story but then you don't allow people to use logic that fits their story without calling it all fictional.

I can say your beliefs are fictional, and all your "scientific evidence" fits beautifully within the fictional framework of your world. Now where are we other than back where we started?

In order to function as an individual, or a species, we have to build a model of reality. To do this, we have to assume that there is an objective reality that we are observing.

It is an assumption, but it is one that all our observed evidence supports, in that all models work with each other. It is possible that our reality is not real, but that doesn't matter, because it acts as if it is.

To then go on to say that therefore any model of reality is equally valid, is fallacious. Some are better than others, because some work better than others. A model of reality where Star Wars is real doesn't work. A model of reality where God is real used to work very well, but now does not.