1730 replies to this topic

[Dayzee]

That is a ridiculously self-righteous belief. Damn all the heathens who didn't put all their eggs in one basket?

Also, dayzee, does your post in the chatbox on the main page apply to Sweeney? Calling someone not-so-nice because they believe something different from you and tried to discuss the nuances of both belief systems with you is very narrow-minded.

Sorry, that came out wrong. He may be very nice. He was being not-so-nice specifically to me.

Sorry... but did you just tell me that you have more peace and joy in your life, because I'm fundamentally deficient, right after accsing me of having a giant ego? Maybe you're right, of course, but then I prefer to base my life on what I can deduce to be true, rather than a comforting bedtime story.

I do have peace and joy in my life. That certainly doesn't make me perfect! And you do have a giant ego. Admit it

BTW, there is nothing comforting about potential hell and damnation. Wouldn't it be easier to dismiss God and therefore have no eternal consequences?

[Sweeney]

I do have peace and joy in my life. That certainly doesn't make me perfect! And you do have a giant ego. Admit it

I don't believe I have an unjustifiably large ego at all. Perhaps you're misreading the confidence I have in debating a topic that I am well versed in as egotism?

I don't suppose you'd care to address the whole of that post?

BTW, there is nothing comforting about potential hell and damnation. Wouldn't it be easier to dismiss God and therefore have no eternal consequences?

That's an irrelevancy, because that's not where you believe you'll be off to.

[Dayzee]

If you're not interested in my explanation of miracles, then why on earth did you ask for it?

Sweeney, you're right. I did ask for it. So what's your explanation?

[Sweeney]

Sweeney, you're right. I did ask for it. So what's your explanation?

As you might recall, I agreed to explain it after you explained how God did it.

And since we're talking specifically about a miraculous cancer recovery, I wonder if you might explain why God decided to miraculously cure your loved one, but not millions of others?

[Dayzee]

That's an irrelevancy, because that's not where you believe you'll be off to.

True, it doesn't apply to me. But that doesn't make it irrelevant. I have plenty of close family and friends who it does apply to. That fills me with tremendous grief.

[systray]

As you might recall, I agreed to explain it after you explained how God did it.

And since we're talking specifically about a miraculous cancer recovery, I wonder if you might explain why God decided to miraculously cure your loved one, but not millions of others?

Or why he (she?) would even bother creating cancer in the first place.

Or why athletes praise god for giving them the talent to win millions of dollars playing a game, but there are millions of starving AIDS children in Africa who could be helped for less than a dollar each.

Edited by systray, 04 January 2011 - 10:01 AM.

[Sweeney]

Or why he (she?) would even bother creating cancer in the first place.

Or why athletes praise god for giving them the talent to win millions of dollars playing a game, but there are millions of starving AIDS children in Africa who could be helped for less than a dollar each.

If I might interject, and make a little prediction?
These things, of course, are the result of the fall from Eden, and the consequence of original sin.

[Dayzee]

As you might recall, I agreed to explain it after you explained how God did it.

And since we're talking specifically about a miraculous cancer recovery, I wonder if you might explain why God decided to miraculously cure your loved one, but not millions of others?

Ummm, I thought miracles were called such because they cannot be explained by the laws of nature and are therefore thought to be supernatural or acts of God. Are you really asking me to explain how God did something?

[systray]

If I might interject, and make a little prediction?
These things, of course, are the result of the fall from Eden, and the consequence of original sin.

So descendants of someone who we had no control over are doomed for their ignorance? Very rational. [/sarcasm]

[Sweeney]

Ummm, I thought miracles were called such because they cannot be explained by the laws of nature and are therefore thought to be supernatural or acts of God. Are you really asking me to explain how God did something?

Well, yes. If you want me to accept that the God-model is of use in explaining hitherto unexplained phenomena, then I would like you to explain the mechanism behind it.

[Dayzee]

I certainly cannot presume to know the mind of God, why He heals one person and not another. Perhaps there is a bigger picture than you or I can see.

[Sweeney]

So descendants of someone who we had no control over are doomed for their ignorance? Very rational. [/sarcasm]

Doomed for the ignorance of two people who, before eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, had no concept of right or wrong, which was, of course, decreed by God, who, being omnipotent, already knew what would happen.

[systray]

Well, yes. If you want me to accept that the God-model is of use in explaining hitherto unexplained phenomena, then I would like you to explain the mechanism behind it.

O
Webster defines a miracle (in the context of Christian science) as a phenomenon directly related to the fulfillment of spiritual law. So in that case, miracles occur because you didn't sin (I think that's how it's supposed to be understood). Of course it would be nice to hear this from a knowledgeable Christian instead of an uninformed, albeit curious, agnostic like me.

Doomed for the ignorance of two people who, before eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, had no concept of right or wrong, which was, of course, decreed by God, who, being omnipotent, already knew what would happen.

Well good, that means if I believe in God I'm not responsible for my actions anymore right? After all, I didn't know any better.

Edited by systray, 04 January 2011 - 10:09 AM.

[Sweeney]

I certainly cannot presume to know the mind of God, why He heals one person and not another. Perhaps there is a bigger picture than you or I can see.

You can't presume to know the mind of God?
Well, then, how on earth do you know that the Bible represents an accurate summary of his intentions for his people on Earth?

[Dayzee]

Well, let's see, he took an invisible scalpel and some forceps...

I can't explain it. Nor can I explain why some people get healed and others don't. I don't think God uses mechanisms. If I believe he created the world from nothing so why would I believe he used a "mechanism" to heal a boy from cancer?

Are you going to offer an explanation or just keep saying "you first".

[systray]

Well, let's see, he took an invisible scalpel and some forceps...

I can't explain it. Nor can I explain why some people get healed and others don't. I don't think God uses mechanisms. If I believe he created the world from nothing so why would I believe he used a "mechanism" to heal a boy from cancer?

Are you going to offer an explanation or just keep saying "you first".

Your argument would be more valid if you simply stated god was magic. I can tell you right now his explanation will mean nothing to you, because in the end I'm fairly certain you will cite God as the creator of whatever Sweeney thinks actually happened.

Edited by systray, 04 January 2011 - 10:20 AM.

[Dayzee]

You can't presume to know the mind of God?
Well, then, how on earth do you know that the Bible represents an accurate summary of his intentions for his people on Earth?

C'mon I can read a book you wrote about your life but that doesn't mean I know why you buy yogurt instead of sour cream. I find God very mysterious! I believe wht the Bible tells us about his intentions for us, but that doesn't mean I know every detail of his plan.

[Sweeney]

Well, let's see, he took an invisible scalpel and some forceps...

I can't explain it. Nor can I explain why some people get healed and others don't. I don't think God uses mechanisms. If I believe he created the world from nothing so why would I believe he used a "mechanism" to heal a boy from cancer?

Are you going to offer an explanation or just keep saying "you first".

I have no idea why your boy recovered.
That doesn't make it a miracle, though, does it?

You're free to believe it was, of course, but don't expect anyone to take it seriously. Sometimes cancer goes into remission. We don't always know why, but we're looking into it.
Of course, if it was a miracle, then all that effort is wasted...

I've said it before, and I'll repeat it for your benefit. God is not an explanation, it's an excuse for intellectual laziness.

[systray]

C'mon I can read a book you wrote about your life but that doesn't mean I know why you buy yogurt instead of sour cream.

Any good biography would give you a fair amount of insight as to why he makes that decision, actually. You may not know the brand name, but you know the reasoning behind the choice.

[Sweeney]

C'mon I can read a book you wrote about your life but that doesn't mean I know why you buy yogurt instead of sour cream. I find God very mysterious! I believe wht the Bible tells us about his intentions for us, but that doesn't mean I know every detail of his plan.

Oh, ok. So you know a little bit of his mind, but not the bit that deals with the really hard questions.

Forgive me, but that doesn't sound terribly useful.

[Dayzee]

Your argument would be more valid if you simply stated god was magic. I can tell you right now his explanation will mean nothing to you, because in the end I'm fairly certain you will cite God as the creator of whatever Sweeney thinks actually happened.

Hahaha. Magic would be a pretty good explanation, but I hesitate to use that word so as not to imply illusions created by deceptive techniques, etc... can you see where I'm going with this.

[Sweeney]

Well good, that means if I believe in God I'm not responsible for my actions anymore right? After all, I didn't know any better.

Sadly, when Eve nibbled that apple, she cursed us all with informed free will.
Convenient, isn't it?

Magic would be a pretty good explanation

This summarises everything I hate about people who believe similar things.

"Magic" is not a good explanation for anything. Ever.

[systray]

Hahaha. Magic would be a pretty good explanation, but I hesitate to use that word so as not to imply illusions created by deceptive techniques, etc... can you see where I'm going with this.

Forgive me and let me clarify. I define magic as Harry Potter spells and potions and whatnot. David Blaine tricking stupid people into looking the wrong way while he steals their watch doesn't count as magic.

[Dayzee]

Forgive me and let me clarify. I define magic as Harry Potter spells and potions and whatnot. David Blaine tricking stupid people into looking the wrong way while he steals their watch doesn't count as magic.

Then yes, I suppose it's kinda like magic

[Sweeney]

So now you can sit back and presume that your invocation of "magic" as a catch-all explanation for things unexplained has stumped me?

Well, you're partially right. I can't argue the nature of reality with someone who honestly believes that magic is an acceptable explanation for anything. You're clearly too far gone for that approach to make a dent in your cognitive dissonance.

However.
I am going to ask you another question. One which, if you have any integrity to your belief at all, you should be unable to answer without incurring a circular argument with regards to miracles being evidence for God's existence.

How do you know that these miracles were the work of the god that you believe in?