1730 replies to this topic

[Adam]

No. Lack of evidence + basic logic.

I guess the people that do believe in God are dumb or something because we believe in something you can't physically touch or see.

[Mr. Hobo]

This will lead to people getting offended/defensive so I'm going to avoid saying anything directly and quote a wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia....nd_intelligence

Nyborg also co-authored a study with Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. [6] The study analysed the issue from several viewpoints. Firstly, using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 g-IQ points higher than those adhering to a religion.

Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted “virtually all the higher IQ countries.” The authors reported a correlation of 0.60 between atheism rates and level of intelligence, which is “highly statistically significant.” This portion of the study uses the same data set as Lynn's work IQ and the Wealth of Nations, which has drawn criticism of accuracy and accusations of statistical manipulation. See main article at IQ and the Wealth of Nations#Criticism

Commenting on the study in The Daily Telegraph, Lynn said "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God," [7]

In 1975, Norman Poythress studied a sample of 234 US college undergraduates, grouping them into relatively homogeneous religious types based on the similarity of their religious beliefs, and compared their personality characteristics. He found that "Literally-oriented religious Believers did not differ significantly from Mythologically-oriented Believers on measures of intelligence, authoritarianism, or racial prejudice. Religious Believers as a group were found to be significantly less intelligent and more authoritarian than religious Skeptics." He used SAT's as a measure of intelligence for this study. [9]

In the US, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, those with graduate degrees were the least likely to believe in the afterlife or the Bible as the word of God, suggesting a link between religious belief and lower educational attainment. [10]

A weak negative correlation between education and Christian fundamentalism was found by Burton et al. (1989), a small study comparing the religious beliefs and educational achievements of white, Protestant residents of Delaware County, Indiana. Contrary to the researchers' expectations, fundamentalist converts were not less educated people. [11]

Although to be fair

In the US, religious behavior correlates with education level by 0.487976383, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, which indicates that 30.7% of those with a graduate degree attend religious services weekly or more, 2.8% higher than those who left school at high school. The group with the highest percentage of “never attending” was that of early school leavers[10].

Studies of Mormons in the US also display a high positive correlation between education levels and religiosity. Survey research indicated that 41% of Mormons with only elementary school education attend church regularly. By contrast, 76% of Mormon college graduates attend church regularly and 78% of Mormons who went beyond their college degrees to do graduate study attend church regularly.[15] Again, the researchers do not equate this educational level with intelligence. This study did not control for age or track apostasy over time.

[Adam]

This will lead to people getting offended/defensive so I'm going to avoid saying anything directly and quote a wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia....nd_intelligence

I can see why non believers scored higher I suppose because they are less sheltered from the world. What I'm saying is I don't appreciate essentially being called a fool/idiot because I believe in something/someone higher then me and the rest of the world. I respect your opinion as much as the next person but telling someone they are pretty much a fool because they believe in [a]God is ignorant.
When the day comes and me and all the other believers are standing on God's side, I might feel sorry for those that have pursicuited and laughed in us believer's faces.

-hates sounding like a holy roller-

Edited by xTak, 19 October 2009 - 07:57 AM.

[ZERO]

I do believe in God and I am a Christian. I read my Bible daily and I pray whenever I think about it. But I do not condemn those who think differently from me. Maybe im not a very good Christian because I believe that people should have equal rights and Im on the left politically, even though that has nothing to do with religion, where I come from it does apparently. Im just saying that Im tired of the average modern Christian who just believes what they hear from their pastor and without any thinking or reasoning spew it out and force it down other people's throats. That's not what I believe God has called us to do. That turns so many people off all the time. I saw a cartoon once that showed a Christian bashing someone who had different opinions and thought differently about stuff, and then when they made a comment about the Christian, he immediately went on the defensive and wouldn't stand for someone disagreeing with him. That's not how it should be.

[Mr. Hobo]

What I'm saying is I don't appreciate essentially being called a fool/idiot because I believe in something/someone higher then me and the rest of the world.
I respect your opinion as much as the next person but telling someone they are pretty much a fool because they believe in [a]God is ignorant.
When the day comes and me and all the other believers are standing on God's side, I might feel sorry for those that have pursicuited and laughed in us believer's faces.

Ok, broke up your post

I never said anything directly . And you're holding onto an irrational belief that has no support and condemns those who do not share such a belief. The same way I think of Christians, I think of those kids talking about 2012/the illuminati/fake moon landing or the guy who believes in Greek polytheism
How is it ignorant? If anything, it's fighting ignorance. Maybe making you guys feel insecure about your beliefs might nudge you towards thinking about them and maybe adopting more logical ones. Blunt and possibly offensive but odds are you're going to come off that way when you're saying someones beliefs are wrong
Yes, I'm an asshole for insinuating you are stupid yet your beliefs condemn me to hell/limbo/death for not having blind faith .

I do believe in God and I am a Christian. I read my Bible daily and I pray whenever I think about it. But I do not condemn those who think differently from me. Maybe im not a very good Christian because I believe that people should have equal rights and Im on the left politically, even though that has nothing to do with religion, where I come from it does apparently.

Then you ignoring a large part of the Bible because your morals compel you to. Morals you did not learn from the Bible. And in which case, why even follow it at all? It isn't really needed and odds are you're already ignoring the majority of it.

Edited by Mr. Hobo, 19 October 2009 - 11:20 AM.

[ZERO]

Ok, broke up your post

I never said anything directly . And you're holding onto an irrational belief that has no support and condemns those who do not share such a belief. The same way I think of Christians, I think of those kids talking about 2012/the illuminati/fake moon landing or the guy who believes in Greek polytheism
How is it ignorant? If anything, it's fighting ignorance. Maybe making you guys feel insecure about your beliefs might nudge you towards thinking about them and maybe adopting more logical ones. Blunt and possibly offensive but odds are you're going to come off that way when you're saying someones beliefs are wrong
Yes, I'm an asshole for insinuating you are stupid yet your beliefs condemn me to hell/limbo/death for not having blind faith .



Then you ignoring a large part of the Bible because your morals compel you to. Morals you did not learn from the Bible. And in which case, why even follow it at all? It isn't really needed and odds are you're already ignoring the majority of it.

I didn't even read your post, I was just venting about my belief on the modern day western Christians who do not think for themselves, but rely on Glenn Beck and their Sunday morning pastor for all of their facts.

EDIT: Just read that you weren't talking to me lol sorry, but still my point remains valid


Also how is being accepting of others views and being tolerant ignoring the morals of the Bible? Is that not what Jesus commanded us to do? Love one another, not shun one another because they believe in something different. Though it may not be my lifestyle or choice, Im not going to smack someone over the head with the Bible because they do it, but they know where they stand and if they are convicted then so be it, but I do what I was called to do, be a witness through my actions.

Edited by ZERO, 19 October 2009 - 11:56 AM.

[Adam]

Ok, broke up your post

I never said anything directly . And you're holding onto an irrational belief that has no support and condemns those who do not share such a belief. The same way I think of Christians, I think of those kids talking about 2012/the illuminati/fake moon landing or the guy who believes in Greek polytheism
How is it ignorant? If anything, it's fighting ignorance. Maybe making you guys feel insecure about your beliefs might nudge you towards thinking about them and maybe adopting more logical ones. Blunt and possibly offensive but odds are you're going to come off that way when you're saying someones beliefs are wrong
Yes, I'm an asshole for insinuating you are stupid yet your beliefs condemn me to hell/limbo/death for not having blind faith .



Then you ignoring a large part of the Bible because your morals compel you to. Morals you did not learn from the Bible. And in which case, why even follow it at all? It isn't really needed and odds are you're already ignoring the majority of it.

Like I said, I respect your opinion as much as the next. You're fighting ignorance with ignorance eh? It's partly a paradox that can never be solved. You're telling ME that what I and millions of others believe (Christianity - more specifically Lutheran) is pure ignorance and THAT I do not respect. In the same way I think it's ignorant for someone NOT to believe in life after death, is it comforting for you to know that after you die you're just...dead? I also know you will pull this thought out of your ass too, "I'd much rather not believe in something that condemns me if I don't believe in it". Indeed faith may be a double edge sword (In most religions atleast), believe and be saved or do not believe and be condemned. I find it funny that you agnostic people attack us believers, no matter what religion, and call us foolish and idiotic etc. We BELIEVE in something/someone and want to do better in our lives. I'm not even mad at you for not believing in anything, that is your prerogative and I don't want to change it. What I am mad at is you have the audacity to call believers fools and ignorant etc.
By the way, you don't threaten or make any believer of any religion insecure about what we believe. Don't think that you have any of us quaking in our boots because if you do, you sir are the ignorant one.

[ZERO]

I just think stuff like this is over the top:

[Adam]

I just think stuff like this is over the top:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3mDLsyn6ns"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=q3mDLsyn6ns[/url]

LOL...I saw that video on like VH1. They were doing a show about the craziest TV blowouts or some shit. Thank God I don't know any crazy people like that x.X

[ZERO]

LOL...I saw that video on like VH1. They were doing a show about the craziest TV blowouts or some shit. Thank God I don't know any crazy people like that x.X

It's just funny though cause there are people like that and they think they are just going to be rewarded in Heaven Idk, stuff like that always fires me up.

[Mr. Hobo]

Also how is being accepting of others views and being tolerant ignoring the morals of the Bible? Is that not what Jesus commanded us to do? Love one another, not shun one another because they believe in something different. Though it may not be my lifestyle or choice, Im not going to smack someone over the head with the Bible because they do it, but they know where they stand and if they are convicted then so be it, but I do what I was called to do, be a witness through my actions.

http://www.skepticsa...m/int/long.html

However, there's nothing wrong with people who believe in god and read the bible. Christianity teaches good morals, and sometimes having faith is important. Sure, there are lots of loons nowadays who interpret their religion "differently" XD.... but still, lessons of forgiving, kindness, being a good person overall in hopes of going somewhere "heavenly" after death- how can this be bad?

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche] (guess who I've been reading up on )

It's not so much as they interpret stuff differently as they don't ignore large parts of their religion as the rest of the moderate followers do.
Entrance heaven as an incentive to do good is fine by me, but it's usually coupled with some nasty shit

Like I said, I respect your opinion as much as the next. You're fighting ignorance with ignorance eh?

How am I being ignorant? Ignorance doesn't mean abrasiveness

You're telling ME that what I and millions of others believe (Christianity - more specifically Lutheran) is pure ignorance and THAT I do not respect.

It's ignoring tons of stuff out there. I'm sure the average Christian has invested all of 5 minutes grasping the basics and then automatically rejecting different beliefs

is it comforting for you to know that after you die you're just...dead?

No it doesn't. It scares me. That doesn't mean I'm going to start deluding myself though.

By the way, you don't threaten or make any believer of any religion insecure about what we believe. Don't think that you have any of us quaking in our boots because if you do, you sir are the ignorant one.

You're exaggerating my claims trying to make them absurd and then dismissing them. I've never had nor do I try to make anyone 'quake in their boots'

I merely point out things that encourage thought and then question a persons beliefs, if that makes me come off as arrogant/mocking/condescending/insulting then so be it

Cor. 14:34 --- Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Or

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 --- If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Or

Everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Or

Exodus 31:13-15
Six days my work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death

etc

Edited by Mr. Hobo, 19 October 2009 - 12:15 PM.

[Adam]

Yes you're being ignorant by calling me ignorant and telling me I'm a fool for believing in what I do.
I never said I fully believe in everything the bible says. Shit, the bible talks down about women as you quoted in Corrinthians and that is wrong. Perhaps I don't even fully believe everything in the bible is truth, perhaps the only thing I need in life is the thought and the belief that "Jesus saved me from my sins and I'm going to heaven for it.". I understand where you're coming from about the whole being put to death thing if you don't do this and this and this for God. I don't believe that should be the case at all and being swollowed by a whale..come on now. As you said, there are people who take certain bits and pieces from the bible and make it their own, I suppose I am one of them and do not appreciate being pursicuted for it.

[Metigue]

I don't care what other people believe and neither should anyone else. It's there choice and it's there thoughts. Everyone will find a means of acceptance to the eventuality that is existentialism in there own way and means.

If you believe Jesus died for your sins so be it.

But if you are unwilling to accept that anything else may be true, or that it's just a method of description for the same thing, or just be open-minded on the subject. Then you are being thick-skulled.

[Mr. Hobo]

Yes you're being ignorant by calling me ignorant and telling me I'm a fool for believing in what I do.

HOWWWWWWWWWW

ignorant [ˈɪgnərənt]
adj
1. lacking in knowledge or education; unenlightened
2. (postpositive; often foll by of) lacking in awareness or knowledge (of) ignorant of the law
3. resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or awareness an ignorant remark

I never said I fully believe in everything the bible says. Shit, the bible talks down about women as you quoted in Corrinthians and that is wrong. Perhaps I don't even fully believe everything in the bible is truth, perhaps the only thing I need in life is the thought and the belief that "Jesus saved me from my sins and I'm going to heaven for it.". I understand where you're coming from about the whole being put to death thing if you don't do this and this and this for God. I don't believe that should be the case at all and being swollowed by a whale..come on now. As you said, there are people who take certain bits and pieces from the bible and make it their own, I suppose I am one of them and do not appreciate being pursicuted for it.

But then why identify yourself as a Christian? Will believing in Jesus grant you access to heaven? What makes you believe that?

[Adam]

I can call myself a Christian because I was brought up as one. I went to a lutheran school from 1st through 10th grade. The basis of lutheranism is believing that Jesus saved us from our sins. That is how I call myself a Christian.
But sir, I have to thank you. Having debates like this make me realize why I believe in God, not only to save myself but to debate for Jesus. Take on the world like he did for me. Thank you.

God bless your day.

Edited by xTak, 19 October 2009 - 12:40 PM.

[ZERO]

Yes you're being ignorant by calling me ignorant and telling me I'm a fool for believing in what I do.
I never said I fully believe in everything the bible says. Shit, the bible talks down about women as you quoted in Corrinthians and that is wrong. Perhaps I don't even fully believe everything in the bible is truth, perhaps the only thing I need in life is the thought and the belief that "Jesus saved me from my sins and I'm going to heaven for it.". I understand where you're coming from about the whole being put to death thing if you don't do this and this and this for God. I don't believe that should be the case at all and being swollowed by a whale..come on now. As you said, there are people who take certain bits and pieces from the bible and make it their own, I suppose I am one of them and do not appreciate being pursicuted for it.

I believe that a lot of what was written in the Bible was used rhetorically. A lot of figurative writing and laws that existed in the specific time.

[Mr. Hobo]

I can call myself a Christian because I was brought up as one. I went to a lutheran school from 1st through 10th grade.

The basis of lutheranism is believing that Jesus saved us from our sins. That is how I call myself a Christian.
But sir, I have to thank you. Having debates like this make me realize why I believe in God, not only to save myself but to debate for Jesus. Take on the world like he did for me. Thank you.

God bless your day.

indoctrination

Jesus, who is God saved you from original sin, which happened when Adam and Even, who were created by God, got tempted by the Devil, who was created by God, into eating forbidden fruit, which was created by God, and despite God knowing this would happen/creating the factors which resulted in this, God got pissed off then let humanity suffer for X time. Then decided to become his own son, go to earth as Jesus where he'd get 'killed' by his creations and die a matrys death to convince himself to not be mad at his creations who's future he created/could predict. This story is what makes you belief in God despite making so sense/having no proof?

You aren't debating so much as stating your beliefs (without really justifying them) then getting offended/calling me ignorant

Bold/Italics/Underline/Strike because typing [ quote] got redundant. Nothing meant by striking out pleasantries

Plus it makes things more dramatic

Good day to you too

Edited by Mr. Hobo, 19 October 2009 - 01:14 PM.

[Adam]

indoctrination

Jesus, who is God saved you from original sin, which happened when Adam and Even, who were created by God, got tempted by the Devil, who was created by God, into eating forbidden fruit, which was created by God, and despite God knowing this would happen/creating the factors which resulted in this, God got pissed off then let humanity suffer for X time. Then decided to become his own son, go to earth as Jesus where he'd get 'killed' by his creations and die a matrys death to convince himself to not be mad at his creations who's future he created/could predict. This story is what makes you belief in God despite making so sense/having no proof?

You aren't debating so much as stating your beliefs (without really justifying them) then getting offended/calling me ignorant

Bold/Italics/Underline because typing [ quote] got redundant

Plus it makes things more dramatic

I don't have to explain myself to you any more then the small amount I've done. I didn't even bother reading your italicized stuff. I've realized you're a lost cause, not because I'm trying to convert you in any way shape or form but because you won't just leave us believers alone. God bless your day.

[Mr. Hobo]

Yes, why think about someone else's opinion or question your own for that matter?

Also I got screwed up with the bbcode so I had to edit my post a couple times

[Adam]

Yes, why think about someone else's opinion or question your own for that matter?

Also I got screwed up with the bbcode so I had to edit my post a couple times

I said I respect your opinion numerous times. I respect this debate we've had. I'm just not going to drop what I've believed in for so long to please you. I'd almost like the same respect but that's not going to happen.

[unigirl]

Guess everybody should be allowed to have their own opinion and shouldnt be judged by that And this board gives you the chance to exchange your thoughts and experiences.

[Mr. Hobo]

You respect my opinion yet you ignore it.
You respect the debate but you don't explain yourself fully and skip large parts of what I've written
You don't read about dissenting opinions and I'm guessing you've only really learned about religion from your 10 years of lutheran schooling but you're not ignorant
I'm ignorant for not blindly respecting opinions

We clearly have different definitions of ignorance and respect

I'm not saying to drop your beliefs to make me happy, I'm saying re-examine them from a neutral standpoint and see if they hold up to logic/science. If so, then fantastic, you're spending eternity in heaven. If not then you might want to rethink some things.

There are plenty of religious people who I respect (Copleston for one, I never got around to thanking Athean to referencing him), have learned from and to a certain extent revere. But those are people who have invested a lot of though into their opinions, taken criticism and argued against it. Not blind followers

Guess everybody should be allowed to have their own opinion and shouldnt be judged by that
And this board gives you the chance to exchange your thoughts and experiences.

I disagree with you on the first point. I don't like nazis because I've judged them based on their opinions, same applies to religious extremists, members of extreme left/right groups etc).
I agree with you on the second

Edited by Mr. Hobo, 19 October 2009 - 01:28 PM.

[Adam]

You respect my opinion yet you ignore it.
You respect the debate but you don't explain yourself fully and skip large parts of what I've written
You don't read about dissenting opinions and I'm guessing you've only really learned about religion from your 10 years of lutheran schooling but you're not ignorant
I'm ignorant for not blindly respecting opinions

We clearly have different definitions of ignorance and respect

I'm not saying to drop your beliefs to make me happy, I'm saying re-examine them from a neutral standpoint and see if they hold up to logic/science. If so, then fantastic, you're spending eternity in heaven. If not then you might want to rethink some things.

There are plenty of religious people who I respect (Copleston for one, I never got around to thanking Athean to referencing him), have learned from and to a certain extent revere. But those are people who have invested a lot of though into their opinions, taken criticism and argued against it. Not blind followers



I disagree with you on the first point. I don't like nazis because I've judged them based on their opinions, same applies to religious extremists, members of extreme left/right groups etc).
I agree with you on the second

I've spent a good amount of time re-evaluating my own faith. I don't need the direction of someone on the forum to do such a thing. I'm sure science has proven many things in the bible to be true and others to be false. As stated before some of the things that were put into the bible might have been meant in a rhetoric way. MAYBE as humans were not meant to understand which is rhetoric and which is meant to be real, as said before science cannot prove EVERYTHING. There's been times I'm not sure if I want to believe, but overcame what the world told me and have stuck to my guns. I've read your opinions, and I give them just about as much respect as you give mine. According to you I'm 100% wrong in having any sort of belief so therefore you are wrong in my eyes for giving me trouble for what I believe.

I've given my debate, it's simple. I stand where I stand because simply

"I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy christian church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN."

The apostles creed is a sum of what I believe in.

Edited by xTak, 19 October 2009 - 01:40 PM.

[unigirl]

I disagree with you on the first point. I don't like nazis because I've judged them based on their opinions, same applies to religious extremists, members of extreme left/right groups etc).
I agree with you on the second

0o This was relating to threadtopic "Do you believe in god" an not about "Are you willing to give your life for Allah" or "Do you think Hitler was a kind person" -.-