1730 replies to this topic

[Mr. Hobo]

I've read your opinions, and I give them just about as much respect as you give mine. According to you I'm 100% wrong in having any sort of belief so therefore you are wrong in my eyes for giving me trouble for what I believe.

No. There are plenty of theists out there whose beliefs I respect because they put thought into it, and other beliefs. If I'm wrong for questioning absurdities and facepalming at people who are closeminded then fine. I'm a wrong, ignorant, disrespectful people. But I'd rather be that than close-minded

You say what you believe yet you post no real reasons why

MAYBE as humans were not meant to understand which is rhetoric and which is meant to be real,

So God gets these prophets to write a book for humans because apparently we aren't born with a sense of right or wrong but need to learn it from a book, but humans don't understand it despite God knowing that we wouldn't understand and being fully capable of making us understand? So then people, whohave inquisitive/curious/doubting minds, dismiss this book/teachings/savior because it doesn't make sense (much like they dismissed thousands of other gods who have an equal amount of (or lack of) support/reasoning/proof, all the meanwhile God knows this will happen because he's all powerful, and because of that he sends billions of billions of the creations which he loves and could save, into hell for not believing a book he knew they would not believe?

That. Is. Fucking. Ridiculous.

It does not make sense that a benevolent God would create conditions in which he knows the majority of his children will 'fail' and suffer horribly for it.

0o This was relating to threadtopic "Do you believe in god" an not about "Are you willing to give your life for Allah" or "Do you think Hitler was a kind person" -.-

You didn't say that your statement only applied to moderate beliefs similar to your own. You were being general, saying all opinions deserve respect and I said a few opinions who I was pretty sure we didn't respect.

Edited by Mr. Hobo, 19 October 2009 - 01:53 PM.

[luvsmyncis]

So God gets these prophets to write a book for humans because apparently we aren't born with a sense of right or wrong but need to learn it from a book, but humans don't understand it despite God knowing that we wouldn't understand and being fully capable of making us understand? So then people, whohave inquisitive/curious/doubting minds, dismiss this book/teachings/savior because it doesn't make sense (much like they dismissed thousands of other gods who have an equal amount of (or lack of) support/reasoning/proof, all the meanwhile God knows this will happen because he's all powerful, and because of that he sends billions of billions of the creations which he loves and could save, into hell for not believing a book he knew they would not believe?

That. Is. Fucking. Ridiculous.

It does not make sense that a benevolent God would create conditions in which he knows the majority of his children will 'fail' and suffer horribly for it.

He works in mysterious ways, my friend. Don't forget that. Because our OMNIPRESENT God gave us free choice, but we're also following the path he's chosen for us. It's both ways at th same time. You're right. It makes NO sense.

I like to think of the bible like fables. Not all of them are bad. I've always felt you're SUPPOSED to think about them, not just take them as WRITTEN LAW. God shit all over Job, but he lived on. Cain and Abel- don't kill your brother. The prodjigal son- even if you stay and help your dad and your brother wanders off whoring and spending all his money, your dad will STILL like him better than you. The burning bush- only YOU can prevent forest fires.

While I tend to agree with a lot of Hobo's arguments, I can imagine it must be difficult for a believer to say WHY they believe without sounding like a sheep.

But... I think that is generally what being religious is about. Being a sheep. I'm not saying this to be ugly, or to put anyone down. Jesus was the sheppard of this huge flock of human followers, and they're still following him. One of the biggest themes of the story of Jesus' life is that children of God should be humble. Jesus was born in a barn. He rode on a donkey. He hung out with sluts, beggars, tax people. Scum of the earth. The point was that even if you are utter shit, if you are humble and kind to everyone, you will find a place in the flock, and in heaven.

Unfortunately, lately, Christians typically come off as finger-pointing, oppressing, righteous assholes, because there ARE so many people who believe without... really... understanding... anything. At all.

For my part, I don't claim to know whether God exists. I was raised Catholic and still go to church every now and then. I enjoy the artistry of stained glass windows and find that papery Jesus cracker oddly yummy. I don't know if it's modesty, self-deprecation, or just plain ignorance, but I neither trust myself to believe God exists, nor do I trust myself enough to know God DOESN'T exist. I honestly don't know.

But, I'm pretty sure if I positively DID believe, I wouldn't be able to tell you why without sounding retarded.

[artificial]

Most people believe in God because they are told to believe in God. I read above someone made the argument that just because you can't see and feel it doesn't mean it isn't there. That person is correct. However, by that logic an infinite amount of other explanations behind life are plausible.

When it bottles down to it, the only evidence Christians have of their God is the Bible, which I think everyone will agree is not to be taken literally. There is no other tangible proof, simply faith, and the Bible is extremely weak at best. A Muslim will say "Christians aren't going to heaven" while a Christian will say "Muslims aren't going to heaven", the whole construct of religion on earth is flawed, and it's all thousands of years old, constructed for less educated folk to explain the world. In the beginning, when humans started inquiring about the world and how it came to be (i.e. space, moon, earth) the simplest answer was a God. We now know the scientific process behind all of this, and the requirement for a God is slowly diminishing.

Most religious people are extremely narrow minded, especially those put faith in the old testament. I remember laughing at my school priest when I was around 9 or 10 as he was telling me the guidelines for getting in to heaven. The funny thing is, if there really was a God watching over us, I think I would be far more likely to get in to heaven then a lot of 'christians'

[shesamessx]

No, for a couple reasons.

First, I have many people in my life, why would I love only God? The Bible says love and respect your parents or whatever but it also said something about loving God the most, I believe, unless I've mistaken this part.

Second, why would "God" make good people suffer? As punishment for Adam and Eve eating the apple? Wouldn't you think after all these years, we've endured enough "punishment?"

I bet whoever made this Bible is rolling in his/her grave laughing at how everyone believes in something all because of a book. Very old phrase, but if the book told you to jump off a bridge and kill yourself when you're 30, would you do it? All because a book said so? I wouldn't.

What if instead of "Love thy neighbor" it said "Kill thy neighbor." Would you do it because a book said so? I wouldn't.

And how come if you keep going up in space, there's nothing. Either "Heaven" is really far up, it's "magical" (which face it, nothing is), or it simply does not exist. Same goes for Hell. No one has been able to dig that far down, but how do you get there? Do you walk through the "light" and are right there, at Heaven's gate or Hell's wrath? By nothing except "magic?" There certainly are no stairs to Heaven and there definitely isn't a hole in the ground that you enter to get to Hell that we've found. And thinking about it, billions and billions of people have died, so how do they fit into "Hell?" It has to be far down enough to be hot, so that doesn't leave a lot of room. Not that I even know how much space there is, but eventually you'd run out of room.


Please don't take this as me shoving my "faith" down your throat, that's not what I'm doing. I'm just stating my opinion of things. I have nothing against people that believe in a higher being.

Edit: Sorry for the very lengthy post!

Edited by shesamessx, 20 October 2009 - 01:02 AM.

[Mr. Hobo]

Lengthy posts are good as long as you're not rambling (even then, some ramblings are pretty amusing).

Edited by Mr. Hobo, 20 October 2009 - 08:01 AM.

[shesamessx]

Lengthy posts are good as long as you're not rambling (even then, some ramblings are pretty amusing).

I'm pretty sure I didn't ramble and I think I backed up my opinion haha. And agreed.

[Mr. Hobo]

Ya I know, it was a good post

Also that cow is pretty freaky

[unworthy]

I want there to be a god. I do not believe there is one though. If we are created in god's image..hell we fell far from the apple tree.

[Kraftwerk]

I don't believe in God, because I don't need him in my life. Anyway, I think it is possible that he exist, but I decided not to believe. I'm not really interested in prooving either that he does or does not exist. I'm apatheist.

[Kuraz]

I do believe there is a God. While most of the things are controlled by him

[Sweeney]

I do believe there is a God. While most of the things are controlled by him

That explains a lot.
Original sin is the original version of the "guilty until proven innocent" mentality.

[Devilfish]

Wow, so I'm the only one who's going to say yes and just yes? Awkwaaard

Seriously though: are we talking about the Christian God? Man in the clouds who makes a list and checks it twice? No, although I used to as a child and parted with the Christian faith in peace. Divinity as a whole, yes. You may commence calling me a retard and trying to logic me out of my faith now

Edited by Devilfish, 01 January 2010 - 09:33 AM.

[outsidedream86]

Divinity as a whole, yes. You may commence calling me a retard and trying to logic me out of my faith now

Well since you asked.... Ok, I'll do my best not to berate you because I'm genuinely curious. I have two questions: what does the word divinity mean to you, and where does logic end and your faith begin? How do you decide what to have faith in? Hopefully I'm not being too nosy--in real life I keep my views to myself because I also don't like getting called a retard and all that.

[Devilfish]

Hopefully I'm not being too nosy--in real life I keep my views to myself because I also don't like getting called a retard and all that.

No no, I chose to participate in this topic, I can deal with questions

I have two questions: what does the word divinity mean to you...

Divinity, wow, hard to explain in a few sentences. What I mean by divinity, in the best way I can explain it, would be a sort of underlying connection, a network that connects every living thing. A sort of natural internet, if you will. I like to use the word web (try not to take that too literal) in which all of us and everything that lives has a strand. Strands cross and all strands together form something that is larger than the sum of it's parts. In the same way that a pile of bones and tissue and blood doesn't make a human, a bunch of mamals and rocks and oceans doesn't make a world. Maybe the 'soul' of the world, but soul is a very laden term so I hesitate to use it. I chose to see this 'web' as divine. Some people would call it "creation' and claime that a powerful entity contiously made it. I like to believe that it is naturally there.

The logic and truth of all this is largly inconsequential to me personally. It's less about finding a universal truth and more about seeing the world in a certain way. I have found that once you see the world in these terms, when you see other people as part of this great whole that you cannot detach yourself from, it inspires me to be kind and respectful towards others. It actuall leads to some virtues that many organised religions mention; compassion, 'connectivity' (for lack of a better word), respect and all that good stuff. It's very hard to explain, but you get to see the world as a kinder place than you usually would.

...and where does logic end and your faith begin? How do you decide what to have faith in?

Logic and faith (or rather science and religion) do not need to be polar opposites. Just because you're religious doesn't mean you automatically have to reject everything science as a whole has given us. Both serve their purpose. I happen to think (cheesy as it may sound) that what we are and everything that goes on in the world is quite miraculous. Not in a strictly religious way, but in a way that inspires great awe. Like I said, I don't believe everything was created by a sentient entity, and the idea that all this just happened is a miracle in it's own right. We've just become very used to it. When we were kids everything was awe-inspiring and wonderful. As adults we mostly lost the ability to be amazed, and I think that's a gap that religion can fill. I think looking at the world and being amazed, by neuroscience, by physics and medicine, is a good thing.

There are Mysteries in this world. I don't mean 'things we haven't figured out yet'. We will figure than out at some point. I mean true, deep mysteries that need to be experienced, not learned, to understand. The Mystery of compassion. The Mystery of true divinity. The things you can't quite put your finger on but are there al the same.

How to decide what to have faith in? I can't tell. I do think it needs to be a decision though. Otherwise it's dogma, not faith. I'd say, whatever inspires you to be better tomorrow than you are today is good enough. You can fill in what 'better' means all by yourself.

Tl;dr, I know.

One tiny note... (*sigh*) (Here goes...) I'm wiccan. And I hate using that world. It carries more negative connotation than muslim. But there you have it.

[Sweeney]

One tiny note... (*sigh*) (Here goes...) I'm wiccan.

Anyone with more than a single brain cell worked that out paragraphs ago

[Devilfish]

Well, I'm pleasantly surprised. Usually it's "Oh, so you drink mentrual blood at full moon and dance naked in other people's backyards then? Cool. Can I have a love potion?"

Edited by Devilfish, 01 January 2010 - 11:08 AM.

[Mr. Hobo]

Do you believe in magic/contacting the dead/reincarnation/rule of three

[Devilfish]

Oi, I knew those questions were coming.

Sorta/No/Yes/Yes. I'll explain if you genuinely want to know.

[jonnykun]

the world is just too complex to not have a creator. yet i don't think our minds are capable of understanding who the creator really is. i just know it's out there. whether he's just sitting back and watching us , or is actively engaging in our daily lives, i don't know..

[outsidedream86]

Hey devilfish, maybe you could clarify something for me. A while ago I was watching some program about the history of Wicca and it was saying how basically it "began" in the 1920s(?) by Margaret Murray, who wrote a book documenting this ancient religion I think. But the show went on to say that there was no actual historical evidence for her claims and no "Wicca" religion has actually ever existed. There were many pagan-type religions long ago but nothing really like Wicca.

Anyway my memory is fuzzy because I saw it a long time ago and I'm not all that familiar with Wicca or other pagan religions. I know you're not the spokesperson or anything but I was wondering if most people follow that book or if they follow generic paganism or some other pagan religion or maybe I'm mixed up and there is an ancient Wicca religion?

[kittycat]

My brain only functions by logic and statistics, dedicating time to pondering the existence of the supernatural is illogical as knowledge pertaining to it can never be validated, only by further supernatural happenings: prophets, etc. No I don't believe of any God or religion. Nor will I ever dedicate my time to studying of them enough to practice them. I was born into an Atheist family and I respect that of myself.

Do you believe in magic/contacting the dead/reincarnation/rule of three

Isn't that neo-Paganism not Wicca

[Mr. Hobo]

Oi, I knew those questions were coming.

Sorta/No/Yes/Yes. I'll explain if you genuinely want to know.

Elaborate on the 'sorta' please

[Devilfish]

Ugh, I really wish I hadn't mentioned wicca.

Murray was a hack. She falsified data and straight up made shit up to make claims about having discovered a matriarchal society and unifying ancient religion (both never existed, as far as we know). She fails as a historian. If you're looking for a person to trace the birth of wicca to, look at Gerald Gardner. Gardnerian wicca used to be the standard, now there's a lot of denominations (Alexandrian, ecclectic, Nordic...). So yes, wicca is about 60 years old and everyone who throws hissy fits about it being an acient earth magic religion is deluded. 75% of wiccans make shit up as they go along, are 13 and call themselves High Priestess Gracie of the Rainbow Unicorn Coven and throw hissy fits when you point out you're not supposed to pull your religion out of your ass. The other 25% practise a mystery religion and are usually in hiding until the stupid fad dies down. The is no 'book'. There are no revelations. There is initiantion and mystery. I can't tell you much about Gardnerian wicca because in an effort to preserve the original religion, they keep their secrets. And I'm not a Gardnerian.

The magic thing... I really don't want to explain. It's got nothing to do with the topic and it's usually a lead-in for a huge rant. If you really want to know more, this is about the only good site about it I've ever found: Wicca for the rest of us (fight the Bunny!).

Edited by Devilfish, 02 January 2010 - 01:49 AM.

[Mr. Hobo]

Alright, thanks

[Devilfish]

No problem. The woman who runs the site is a historian and used to be my teacher, so I largely agree with what's on there anyway. She explains it better than I could anyway.