52 replies to this topic

[Mr. Hobo]

Many, many things. In a nutshell, eugenics took darwinism too far and preached selective breeding for humans. In the context of the era (right before WWII in fact, there's a nice give-away) that simply meant that people deemed 'undersirable' by the governing class should be removed from the gene pool. This included disabled people, criminals, pretty much anyone who wasn't white, but also the poor, because in those days the idea was that the poor were poor because they were not capable of hard work and lacked the qualities a decent human being should have. Fanatic eugenicists (or whetever they're called in English) wanted to sterelize huge chuncks of the population. This actually happened to the black population in th US for a short while. And the there was that nasty little Austrian dude, name escapes me at the moment, something with a pure race and a bunker...

So, you know, if you really feel there's nothing wrong with that, I really can't help you.

http://en.wikipedia....iberal_eugenics


Your argument is pretty odd. If every political belief/religious belief were to be dismissed because some people took it too far then there'd be nothing left

[Devilfish]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_eugenics

Well, you're talking about the modern interpretation of eugenics. I thought it was clear from the context that I was talking about the original philosophy. You know, coming from the argument that the pure scientific view of the world can be a dangerous thing.

Your argument is pretty odd. If every political belief/religious belief were to be dismissed because some people took it too far then there'd be nothing left

Well, there's taking it a little too far, and then there's organised, continent-wide mass murder. And anyway, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be discussed and scutinised. Never said anything about dismissing it. But it's a dangerous and pretty cold philosophy.

Edited by Devilfish, 08 January 2010 - 03:41 PM.

[zenkai]

i believe that everyone has free will about what they do but i believe that everyone death is set by god

[Sweeney]

i believe that everyone has free will about what they do but i believe that everyone death is set by god

Your belief is irrational.

If I decide to commit suicide, was it free will, or determined by God?

[jcrdude]

Your belief is irrational.

If I decide to commit suicide, was it free will, or determined by God?

An illusion of free will that has been given to -a person- by God. God knew -a person was- going to die at that exact moment, and he knew that -a person's- death was going to be a sin. Apparently God hates -said person-.

Edited by jcrboy, 29 January 2010 - 11:05 AM.

[Sweeney]

An illusion of free will that has been given to you by God. God knew you were going to die at that exact moment, and he knew that your death was going to be a sin. Apparently God hates you.

If you're going to answer questions addressed to other people, in the debate section, at least attempt to contribute.

[zenkai]

Your belief is irrational.

If I decide to commit suicide, was it free will, or determined by God?

good question, your death would of be determined by god.

[jcrdude]

If you're going to answer questions addressed to other people, in the debate section, at least attempt to contribute.

I think that my point, while made in an attempt at humor, made some valid points against the God argument when it comes to free will and suicide.

Let me break down what I said so that you can appreciate the finer points.

An illusion of free will that has been given to you by God.

Here I state the base premise of my anti-argument. Premise being that God determines everything, but gives you an illusion of free will.

God knew you were going to die at that exact moment

Here is the end result of your suicide. God knew it was going to happen because He determines everything that will happen.

and he knew your death was going to be a sin

And here is where my point is actually made. God predetermined the folks that commit suicide as sinners.

Apparently God hates you.

And here is where I tie it all up. This is an oxymoron, of course... because God is supposedly a loving God. There is no way that a sentient God would choose to predetermine people as sinners.

So in conclusion, before you read a one-line response and assume that there was no thought put into it, please read the subcontext before determining a post as worthless.

[Sweeney]

good question, your death would of be determined by god.

Which refutes your premise of free will.

I think that my point, while made in an attempt at humor, made some valid points against the God argument when it comes to free will and suicide.
Let me break down what I said so that you can appreciate the finer points.
Here I state the base premise of my anti-argument. Premise being that God determines everything, but gives you an illusion of free will.
Here is the end result of your suicide. God knew it was going to happen because He determines everything that will happen.
And here is where my point is actually made. God predetermined the folks that commit suicide as sinners.
And here is where I tie it all up. This is an oxymoron, of course... because God is supposedly a loving God. There is no way that a sentient God would choose to predetermine people as sinners.
So in conclusion, before you read a one-line response and assume that there was no thought put into it, please read the subcontext before determining a post as worthless.

I followed your premise. It was simply irrelevant, because I wasn't asking for a justification from the perspective of anyone except the person whose view I am questioning.

[jcrdude]

I followed your premise. It was simply irrelevant, because I wasn't asking for a justification from the perspective of anyone except the person whose view I am questioning.

I wasn't necessarily responding specifically to your question. I was simply using your question as a launching board into the conversation... AKA

at least attempt to contribute.

I figured I would have far better odds of being somewhat relevant if I respond to something that's been said today instead of responding to something that was said last month.

Quoting you isn't a sure-fire sign that the post was meant to do anything but be related to your post.

[Sweeney]

I wasn't necessarily responding specifically to your question. I was simply using your question as a launching board into the conversation... AKA
I figured I would have far better odds of being somewhat relevant if I respond to something that's been said today instead of responding to something that was said last month.
Quoting you isn't a sure-fire sign that the post was meant to do anything but be related to your post.

You know, you don't have to quote a previous post.
(Also, in future, if you're not directly responding to the post you quoted, you might want to restrict your use of second-person pronouns).

[jcrdude]

You know, you don't have to quote a previous post.
(Also, in future, if you're not directly responding to the post you quoted, you might want to restrict your use of second-person pronouns).

Duly noted. The theoretical person has now been changed from you to an unknown third party. Your question asked "what if I" so I responded with a "you."

I figured since we were pretty much on the same page on the discussion you would not take too much offense to my absurdist claim that God hates you in an attempt to make a point (and I believe that my response when combined with your question showed step-by-step the flaw in zenkai's claim better than the actual discussion has thus far).

[Sweeney]

Duly noted. The theoretical person has now been changed from you to an unknown third party. Your question asked "what if I" so I responded with a "you."

I figured since we were pretty much on the same page on the discussion you would not take too much offense to my absurdist claim that God hates you in an attempt to make a point (and I believe that my response when combined with your question showed step-by-step the flaw in zenkai's claim better than the actual discussion has thus far).

*bored*

[nancyboy]

No. Everything we say, do and think is controlled. if not by the government then what society calls "normal" disagreeing with the government is equal to breaking the law, doing anything outside of normal in society and you are a vagrant, bum, hooligan or punk. Humans can never return to nature.

[luvsmyncis]

No. Everything we say, do and think is controlled. if not by the government then what society calls "normal" disagreeing with the government is equal to breaking the law, doing anything outside of normal in society and you are a vagrant, bum, hooligan or punk. Humans can never return to nature.

"Government" is there to establish some sense of order, otherwise people would be permitted to take a giant crap in your front lawn without fear of punishment. There's a difference between free will and animalistic impulses. Most people don't go out and murder people they hate. One could argue it's only because it's against the law to kill. But how can you be sure it's not just because most people would feel uncomfortable taking someone else's life? Some choices people make go deeper than what is legal and what isn't.

[Elindoril]

"Government" is there to establish some sense of order, otherwise people would be permitted to take a giant crap in your front lawn without fear of punishment.

That's against the law? Shit.

[nicksmart21]

in Portugal anything is free ! LOL you have to pay to go to the toilet sometimes LOL

[Sweeney]

in Portugal anything is free ! LOL you have to pay to go to the toilet sometimes LOL

[luvsmyncis]

LMAO PERFECT.

[iargue]

I think that my point, while made in an attempt at humor, made some valid points against the God argument when it comes to free will and suicide.

Let me break down what I said so that you can appreciate the finer points.



Here I state the base premise of my anti-argument. Premise being that God determines everything, but gives you an illusion of free will.



Here is the end result of your suicide. God knew it was going to happen because He determines everything that will happen.



And here is where my point is actually made. God predetermined the folks that commit suicide as sinners.



And here is where I tie it all up. This is an oxymoron, of course... because God is supposedly a loving God. There is no way that a sentient God would choose to predetermine people as sinners.

So in conclusion, before you read a one-line response and assume that there was no thought put into it, please read the subcontext before determining a post as worthless.

You obivliously failed 100% to understand god. God doesnt determine shit. He knows what will happen, but he gives us the choices to get to it. Just because he is outside and time, and thus knows all of the choices that we make, does not mean that he determines them.

If I knew who was going to win the Super Bowl before it happened, I didnt influence the outcome, I simply knew something before it chronologically happened.

Using God in an argument is just stupid.

No. Everything we say, do and think is controlled. if not by the government then what society calls "normal" disagreeing with the government is equal to breaking the law, doing anything outside of normal in society and you are a vagrant, bum, hooligan or punk. Humans can never return to nature.

Horrible argument. While Laws setup punishment for not following them, they do nothing to prevent you from breaking them. Murder occurs all the time, even though you will be punished for this. Government attempts to establish control and order, it does not force you to anything.

[jcrdude]

You obivliously failed 100% to understand god. God doesnt determine shit. He knows what will happen, but he gives us the choices to get to it. Just because he is outside and time, and thus knows all of the choices that we make, does not mean that he determines them.

Wait what? If he knows what we're going to do, how is that free will? That sounds like a supercomputer that analyzes the odds of everything happening and determines the actual processes of events.

The only separation being that you get judged for what he knows you're going to do.

It would be handy to know whether or not you're going to hell when you start living.

According to your definition, God already knows.

Thus the illusion of free will is just that: an illusion. He already knows what you're going to do, and even if there's nothing He can do about it, He already knows whether or not we're damned before we live our lives.

[Mr. Hobo]

You obivliously failed 100% to understand god. God doesnt determine shit. He knows what will happen, but he gives us the choices to get to it. Just because he is outside and time, and thus knows all of the choices that we make, does not mean that he determines them.

There is more than 1 way to define god.

Also you're lacking something important. It's not

He knows what will happen, but he gives us the choices to get to it.

It's like he created every single thing, with the full knowledge of what would result from his creations. There are no choices, only the illusion of choice. He knew that a rapist would rape someone and on top of that he's responsible for the factors that resulted in that rapist raping someone as he created every single one.

[iargue]

Wait what? If he knows what we're going to do, how is that free will? That sounds like a supercomputer that analyzes the odds of everything happening and determines the actual processes of events.

No. This is called. OUTSIDE OF FUCKING TIME. Dear god, you do not listen at all.

The only separation being that you get judged for what he knows you're going to do.

It would be handy to know whether or not you're going to hell when you start living.

According to your definition, God already knows.

Thus the illusion of free will is just that: an illusion. He already knows what you're going to do, and even if there's nothing He can do about it, He already knows whether or not we're damned before we live our lives.

You live your life, within the confines of time. Your forced to always progress, and always move on, but only within one fixed period of time. Just like with past, the future has already occurred, you just have yet to experience it. Everything that has happened, or will happen, exists within time. God exists outside of time, and so he knows everything that happens.


This is not an illusion of free will. All of these things exist because of your free will, and the choices you make. You have a choice to do things at every single point in time, and you can choose whatever you want. Its never predetermined.

[jcrdude]

You obivliously failed 100% to understand god. God doesnt determine shit. He knows what will happen, but he gives us the choices to get to it. Just because he is outside and time, and thus knows all of the choices that we make, does not mean that he determines them.

No. This is called. OUTSIDE OF FUCKING TIME. Dear god, you do not listen at all.

You live your life, within the confines of time. Your forced to always progress, and always move on, but only within one fixed period of time. Just like with past, the future has already occurred, you just have yet to experience it. Everything that has happened, or will happen, exists within time. God exists outside of time, and so he knows everything that happens.


This is not an illusion of free will. All of these things exist because of your free will, and the choices you make. You have a choice to do things at every single point in time, and you can choose whatever you want. Its never predetermined.

Let me just make sure I understand what you are proposing.

1. God exists outside of time
2. God views all events as static, because time is irrelevant to Him

3. People have a perception of time, because we are not omnipotent/omnipresent
4. Because of this, we see things as a chain of events that have causes and effects.
5. We perceive our actions as free will because we "decide" what we are going to do based on past interactions, thoughts, and events.

I added a separate line break between the concepts because I don't want to unite them until I know that these are the given parameters.

[iargue]

Let me just make sure I understand what you are proposing.

1. God exists outside of time
2. God views all events as static, because time is irrelevant to Him

3. People have a perception of time, because we are not omnipotent/omnipresent
4. Because of this, we see things as a chain of events that have causes and effects.
5. We perceive our actions as free will because we "decide" what we are going to do based on past interactions, thoughts, and events.

I added a separate line break between the concepts because I don't want to unite them until I know that these are the given parameters.

Your trying to take what I said, and use them to prove you point, for instance, 4 and 5, you use how we view things.

All things have a cause and a effect. Everything that we do, we have a choice in it, and it does effect other things (But never causes them)

We just do not know what is going to happen in the future, because it has not occurred to us yet.