98 replies to this topic

[iargue]

I've heard of and seen a couple vids of that zerg atleast top 8 pro idra whining and complaining about how zerg is a bit weak especially in zvt. i don't play zerg at all so pretty much where i get that idea from. idra though is a known whiner and a terrible sport(telling people he lost to that hes a better player than them etc etc)

Hahahaha. Yeah. I was watching his game. He was getting his ass kicked by a terran and he way like, "Top 8 players are a terran. Yeah thats balanced". and the other guy was like, "What?". and he was like, "Good job winning because of your class".

It ruins the game when people trash talk. Thats why in tourneys it is forbidden to chat much except for GL and GG really.

[Vegas]

Hahahaha. Yeah. I was watching his game. He was getting his ass kicked by a terran and he way like, "Top 8 players are a terran. Yeah thats balanced". and the other guy was like, "What?". and he was like, "Good job winning because of your class".

It ruins the game when people trash talk. Thats why in tourneys it is forbidden to chat much except for GL and GG really.

Definitely not gonna give westerners a good image to the asian pros. Even with zerg though, hes supposed to be a beast. A buddy of mine(diamond rank) was able to play him during the beta and got owned lol. Said he knew idrA's usual 'pro' builds but idra I guess just 1 base rushes against pub players.

[Metigue]

Zerg is a bit "weak" to be balanced. They get units so much faster and cheaper than the other two races. The ammount of units a double hatchery zerg build can pump out is atounding.

The thing I've realised about Starcraft 2, is that it is actually harder than brood war. The reason being, because of the units weakness and strengths to other units. Scouting is like the most important thing to do, because you can see what the opponent has and respond. However, your opponent will also probably see what you have and respond, you have to anticipate that and respond again, you must consider everything. The unit weakness makes it amazing. It has been compared to Rock paper scissors, and I say it is a lot like that, except you can constantly change what one you are picking, and so can your opponent. Or atleast, good players can.

I understand what you are saying with the macro, but I feel that they have just shifted macro on to things that make sense and are less annoying, unlike in brood war when macro was just something to work around to make your game better, it is actually implemented into the game this time around.

Blizzard have payed a lot of attention to what the gamers want this time around.

Micro is far more important in SC2 than it ever was in brood war.

I have just hit diamond league, and finished my campaign on brutal. For that sexy Kerrigan portrait

[Vegas]

Zerg is a bit "weak" to be balanced. They get units so much faster and cheaper than the other two races. The ammount of units a double hatchery zerg build can pump out is atounding.

The thing I've realised about Starcraft 2, is that it is actually harder than brood war. The reason being, because of the units weakness and strengths to other units. Scouting is like the most important thing to do, because you can see what the opponent has and respond. However, your opponent will also probably see what you have and respond, you have to anticipate that and respond again, you must consider everything. The unit weakness makes it amazing. It has been compared to Rock paper scissors, and I say it is a lot like that, except you can constantly change what one you are picking, and so can your opponent. Or atleast, good players can.

I understand what you are saying with the macro, but I feel that they have just shifted macro on to things that make sense and are less annoying, unlike in brood war when macro was just something to work around to make your game better, it is actually implemented into the game this time around.

Blizzard have payed a lot of attention to what the gamers want this time around.

Micro is far more important in SC2 than it ever was in brood war.

I have just hit diamond league, and finished my campaign on brutal. For that sexy Kerrigan portrait

you zerg? been 4warpgate pushing the sh*t outta everybody. just need to be better on micro and work on mid-late game.

[iargue]

The thing I've realised about Starcraft 2, is that it is actually harder than brood war. The reason being, because of the units weakness and strengths to other units. Scouting is like the most important thing to do, because you can see what the opponent has and respond. However, your opponent will also probably see what you have and respond, you have to anticipate that and respond again, you must consider everything. The unit weakness makes it amazing. It has been compared to Rock paper scissors, and I say it is a lot like that, except you can constantly change what one you are picking, and so can your opponent. Or atleast, good players can.

You obviously never understood the game mechanics of Starcraft: Brood war.

Please read this.

http://wiki.teamliqu...ft/Damage_Types

[Metigue]

You obviously never understood the game mechanics of Starcraft: Brood war.

Please read this.

http://wiki.teamliqu...ft/Damage_Types

I'll admit, I never played starcraft 1 online or anything like that.

But by the sounds of that wiki, they just improved upon the same idea.

you zerg? been 4warpgate pushing the sh*t outta everybody. just need to be better on micro and work on mid-late game.

I started out as zerg, then I decided to go toss, I did do 4 warp push, but I changed to 3 for extra rush, as for mid-late. It really depends on your opponent, and what they are doing but microing void-rays so they stay charged is incredibly overpowered at the moment, so I would reccomend that.. After toss I decided to try Terran and I found the Orbital Command to be quite overpowered. and Now I am playing random, for the awesome portraits, achievements and unpredictability it gives you (A win as random counts as 1 random win and 1 whatever race you got win, so double achievements, double portraits.)

Edit: I 1v1 as zerg.

Edited by Metigue, 13 August 2010 - 03:58 PM.

[Vegas]

I'll admit, I never played starcraft 1 online or anything like that.

But by the sounds of that wiki, they just improved upon the same idea.



I started out as zerg, then I decided to go toss, I did do 4 warp push, but I changed to 3 for extra rush, as for mid-late. It really depends on your opponent, and what they are doing but microing void-rays so they stay charged is incredibly overpowered at the moment, so I would reccomend that.. After toss I decided to try Terran and I found the Orbital Command to be quite overpowered. and Now I am playing random, for the awesome portraits, achievements and unpredictability it gives you (A win as random counts as 1 random win and 1 whatever race you got win, so double achievements, double portraits.)

Edit: I 1v1 as zerg.

When 3gate for extra rush for mid-late, you mean going a 2nd tier structure instead of the 4th gate? Haven't looked into the charged void micro. Usually I never go voids(unless its blistering sands) since cols + range up is usually my mid-game counter against most builds since I can deal with most air with mass stalks + support anyway. Voids can be sick at harassing or backdooring but you need to micro really well to be effective and im not at that level yet.

Terran def is the most versatile race. Know some builds but trying to get toss 50 portrait first.

Zerg-really haven't played, will probably try to master last. I hear alot of things on how zerg have such a hard time against terran and since terran is most played, not really motivated to learn it.

I mostly ladder 1v1 but I do run some team games but so far, not really focused into a set team and set strategies yet. My best known race is toss and from what I've experienced, toss is a bit weaker in fast rushes(pretty much how to win team matches) compared to zerg and terran.

[Metigue]

No, I mean saving the resources and spending it on units xD, 3 gate-voids is actually excellent for a mid-push with air support. If you want to do things more on the harassment side though I have won so many protoss games with just 1 gate straight to voids, and getting there eco early.

It's not true, Zerg do not have a terrible time against terran. xD atleast, not if you know the new zerg units well enough.

Zerg is all of a sudden, the most micro-intensive race, Overseers, infestors, queen (Unlike chrono and the OC abilities, the queen is actually vital to playing zerg). And I think so many people don't put the effort in for the more micro intensive units such as infestors, and for this reason can't play zerg in the new starcraft without rushing. I have an excellent mid-late game with zerg, especially against terran. The key is brood lords and infestors.

Brood lords are incredibly over-powered, I've used 4 to take out an entire MMM army before. and infestors are ridiculously strong if you have great micro and know what you are doing.

I cannot stress how important infestors are to the new zerg. and so many players even up to gold league overlook them.

[Volition]

No, I mean saving the resources and spending it on units xD, 3 gate-voids is actually excellent for a mid-push with air support. If you want to do things more on the harassment side though I have won so many protoss games with just 1 gate straight to voids, and getting there eco early.

It's not true, Zerg do not have a terrible time against terran. xD atleast, not if you know the new zerg units well enough.

Zerg is all of a sudden, the most micro-intensive race, Overseers, infestors, queen (Unlike chrono and the OC abilities, the queen is actually vital to playing zerg). And I think so many people don't put the effort in for the more micro intensive units such as infestors, and for this reason can't play zerg in the new starcraft without rushing. I have an excellent mid-late game with zerg, especially against terran. The key is brood lords and infestors.

Brood lords are incredibly over-powered, I've used 4 to take out an entire MMM army before. and infestors are ridiculously strong if you have great micro and know what you are doing.

I cannot stress how important infestors are to the new zerg. and so many players even up to gold league overlook them.

Broodlord are pretty damn overpowered, spawning broodlings and killing a marine in 2 hits

[Metigue]

Broodlord are pretty damn overpowered, spawning broodlings and killing a marine in 2 hits

Exactly, and those broodlings go on to attack other marines, while the brood lord sends more. However, they are not as overpowered as infestors.

[Vegas]

It's not true, Zerg do not have a terrible time against terran. xD atleast, not if you know the new zerg units well enough.

Zerg is all of a sudden, the most micro-intensive race, Overseers, infestors, queen (Unlike chrono and the OC abilities, the queen is actually vital to playing zerg). And I think so many people don't put the effort in for the more micro intensive units such as infestors, and for this reason can't play zerg in the new starcraft without rushing. I have an excellent mid-late game with zerg, especially against terran. The key is brood lords and infestors.

Brood lords are incredibly over-powered, I've used 4 to take out an entire MMM army before. and infestors are ridiculously strong if you have great micro and know what you are doing.

I cannot stress how important infestors are to the new zerg. and so many players even up to gold league overlook them.

http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/thread/594882-dimaga-may-switch-to-terran

not the first top15 pro to complain

terran is without a doubt overpowered

-Terran can wall off their ramps/bases with buildings that could both go underground or fly when needed. This makes it impossible to scout terran unless you want to suicide overlords which is stupid
-Their tier 1 units are all ranged
-They have scan to scout easy
-Reapers are excellent at harass and in early game can be used to keep an army confined to its base (need to stay and defend)
-By keeping the enemy confined, that's a huge problem. A zerg NEEDS to have one more base than a Terran since Terran have mules to mine really fast
-Zerg also NEEDS to expand in order to make new units from a new hatchery
-Marauders destroy all tier 1 protoss units. They eat through chargelots (stim + shoot, run, shoot, run, shoot). They eat through stalkers 1 on 1
-Hellions roast through zerglings and drones SO FREAKING BADLY
-Ghosts are overpowered. They are cheaper than templar, can one shot light units, can attack, have EMP without research. EMP destroys protoss shields, renders archons USELESS, render templar and infestors USELESS. They can cloak and are tiny as **** so you can't even find them to kill them. Oh yeah and they can get nukes. Oh yeah and EMP outranges psi storm so they will prevent any storms from happening. Did I mention they are cheaper than high templar? The same high templar that are only good for psionic storm? lols.
- Siege tanks have rediculous range, not to mention their smart-aiming is stupidly good. They do splash damage and can abuse cliffs
- But wait...thors do splash damage to air! WTF how can one race have two units that attack splash?
- But wait....banshees can also cloak! lol!
- Terran also have freaking battlecruisers (yamato cannon makes it yet another siege unit) and vikings that eat through any other race's air army.

[Metigue]

http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/thread/594882-dimaga-may-switch-to-terran

not the first top15 pro to complain

Yeah, The thing is, it's terran's game. so they are slightly advantaged. But it makes a big difference in the pro leagues like that.

I am sure when Heart of the swarm is released, Although much likely before that at the rate Blizzard is patching, all balance issues are fixed.

But like I've said, I'm in diamond league with zerg, so the balance issues can't be huge.

Also, it's a bit of a sticky situation. Because think of the consequences of nerfing any one of those things that people think are overpowered. It would mean terran now have a huge weakness that other races can exploit.

For this reason I feel Blizzard are going to hold back on nerfing any races, untill they change them all at once (Most likely thoroughly tested for perfect balance)

Also a fun note: Random has the highest winrate of all of the races, with differences in races being very minor in all leagues.

Diamond -
57.13% (Random)
56.60% (Protoss)
57.12% (Terran)
56.78% (Zerg)

Platinum -
58.24% (Random)
56.70% (Protoss)
57.36% (Terran)
57.42% (Zerg)

Even with these stats there is only one zerg in the top 10 in the world, and about 6 in the top 30.

An alternative explanation to the low number of high ranked zergs, is that players who usually play zerg think the game is imbalanced and changed there race, therefore virtually no one of a high skill level is playing zerg leading people to think the game is imbalanced due to a lack of zerg in the rankings.

xD Cause and effect.

Edited by Metigue, 14 August 2010 - 11:35 PM.

[Vegas]

Yeah, The thing is, it's terran's game. so they are slightly advantaged. But it makes a big difference in the pro leagues like that.

I am sure when Heart of the swarm is released, Although much likely before that at the rate Blizzard is patching, all balance issues are fixed.

But like I've said, I'm in diamond league with zerg, so the balance issues can't be huge.

Also, it's a bit of a sticky situation. Because think of the consequences of nerfing any one of those things that people think are overpowered. It would mean terran now have a huge weakness that other races can exploit.

For this reason I feel Blizzard are going to hold back on nerfing any races, untill they change them all at once (Most likely thoroughly tested for perfect balance)

Also a fun note: Random has the highest winrate of all of the races, with differences in races being very minor in all leagues.

Diamond -
57.13% (Random)
56.60% (Protoss)
57.12% (Terran)
56.78% (Zerg)

Platinum -
58.24% (Random)
56.70% (Protoss)
57.36% (Terran)
57.42% (Zerg)

Even with these stats there is only one zerg in the top 10 in the world, and about 6 in the top 30.

An alternative explanation to the low number of high ranked zergs, is that players who usually play zerg think the game is imbalanced and changed there race, therefore virtually no one of a high skill level is playing zerg leading people to think the game is imbalanced due to a lack of zerg in the rankings.

xD Cause and effect.

what server you play on?(I should be on east)

would be interested to run some 1v1 scrims?
playing with diamond players has really improved my game.

ozoneee
349

only in gold so far but wasnt in the beta but recently mastered some builds so been tearing it up, should rank up soon.

[Metigue]

I'm on the Europian server.

PM me for my player number if you want to play a few games. I get kind of annoyed if my team mates are terrible though, so be atleast moderately decent.

[Miked924]

im addictted to this game so i say you should def get it

[Vegas]

my basic 1v1 builds consist of near perfect timed 4gates and 3 raxs lol.

[Metigue]

OH MY FREAKING GOD.

I am so raged right now because I just found out how overpowered terran is.

I had like 60 cracklings, which is 30 x 50 minerals. 1500 for those of you slow at math.
He had about 25 marines with no upgrades, 25 x 50 minerals, 1250 minerals for those of you slow at math.

His marines devoured my cracklings with 2 marines lost.. He then proceeded to take out my base defences which were 3 spine crawlers, which fell in about 2 seconds each. doing no damage to the marines.

How is it that our base units are so different in strength, one which building costs 150 minerals (his) and one which building costs 200 minerals (mine) and we are not forgetting that mine were upgraded with an upgrade that doesn't just cost 100 minerals, but 100 gas aswell.

I have also been playing A LOT of mediocre terrans recently and have started to notice the imbalances, firstly, What the hell is zerg's counter to a Thor? It's been racking my mind for quite a while, since it seems there is nothing I can do against Thors. At first I thought it was brutalisks, but they were utterly demolished. Brood lords were completely splattered. As was every other unit I tried.

According to my starcraft App on my phone it is either a zergling, or a brood lord. But neither, even when they far out number the thors, seem to do any damage.

Also what the hell is with the tech tree's?

Terran have a vs air and ground splash damage combat walker that requires 2 buildings and 1 add on (totalling at 350 minerals 125 vespene), + 300 minerals and 200 gas for the unit itself. Meaning 650 minerals and 325 gas to build one.

While Zerg's BEST(imo) unit, requires 4 upgrades, 3 buildings (totalling at 900 Minerals 600 gas) + 300 minerals and 250 gas for the unit itself.
Meaning 1200 Minerals 850 gas to build one.

This means the brood lord has DOUBLE the minerals and nearly TRIPLE the gas requirement of the Thor

Yet the cheaper, much quicker to get unit, doesn't just beat one of the really expensive brood lords in a fight, it beats 3 or 4? and if you send in it's other "weakness" it will also demolish them before they can reach it? WTF.

So yeah, I found out star craft is not balanced.

There is actually a lot more to this. Basically Zergs only counter to 60% of the things that Terrans usually do requires good micro and to have made it into the late game, which if you think about how strong Marines are, is pretty hard to do.


// Rant over.

I wasn't even having trouble with playing Terran until Mid Diamond league But suddenly players that I felt were worse then me, were wiping the floor with me with Terran. So I played a lot of practice games with my Terran friend. SC2 has more Balance issues than I first thought.

EDIT: Wait THERES MORE

I left out that Thors have a range of FREAKING 10

Have you ever seen the strategy of the Terrans alled TvT? That is where most of the "Terrans are overpowered" comes from. Tanks in siege, Vikings in fighter mode and Thors. Seriously if they get that going, nothing can stop it, and I have tried everything.

For example, the immediate reaction to tanks is air, but the vikings with a range of 9 against air, and the thors with a range of 10 keep air at a distance. You could try something like Dark Templars, but a simple scan from the Terran's Orbital Command and they are all dead. You can't macro your troops out if it because nothing out ranges siege tanks, and they use the Vikings to scout ahead and give the tanks vision.

Also, Think of the unit types, anti-air, Invisible-assasin type, Large combat walker, base unit, second unit.

Terran have the strongest of every standard unit type.

Vikings have the strongest anti-air in the game, as well as being able to transform and be pretty decent on the ground.

Ghosts have ranged attack so they win over dark templars, aswell as being able to snipe biological units and call down nuclear strikes.

Thors can't be hit by air only units, and can attack in the air, as well as having much longer range, better splash damage and better overall damage than the colossus, and Zerg don't even have one, unless you count the brutalisk, which has no ranged attack and as a result gets owned hard by anything that does.

As for base units, Marines just wipe the floor with zealots and zerglings. Big ship type thing

The ONLY exception, where Terran lose out, is the 2nd tier air/ground fighter, where the void ray wipes the floor with the wraith, but I've never seen a terran use a wraith, all they need is banshees and vikings to beat void rays. The mutalisk beats the wraith here, but void rays are ridiculously strong.

As for a Big ship type thing, again Zerg don't have one, but a 3/3 battle cruiser will beat a 3/3 carrier, but in my experience, a lot of carriers beats a lot of battle cruisers, unless they have yamato, in which case, your screwed. It's pretty even, but terran wouldn't fight them with battle cruisers, they would just send in 3/3 vikings, which I have seen completely decimate some carriers before.

Magician, For this, I would say Zerg win hard. Infestors are far better than ghosts or High templars, however, a lot of protoss players complain that EMP wipes the floor with high templars, and the ghost is not terrans only magician type unit. they also have access to Ravens.

EDIT #2

I shall link you here for more zerg complaints from some korean pros.
This time more focused on toss.

http://us.battle.net...topic/375111759

I actually did just have an idea for a really good zerg strategy though. I'll let you know how it goes.

Edited by Metigue, 19 August 2010 - 02:06 AM.

[Powerrrr]

Just wait for the terran nerf.

[iargue]

OH MY FREAKING GOD.

I am so raged right now because I just found out how overpowered terran is.

I had like 60 cracklings, which is 30 x 50 minerals. 1500 for those of you slow at math.
He had about 25 marines with no upgrades, 25 x 50 minerals, 1250 minerals for those of you slow at math.

His marines devoured my cracklings with 2 marines lost.. He then proceeded to take out my base defences which were 3 spine crawlers, which fell in about 2 seconds each. doing no damage to the marines.

How is it that our base units are so different in strength, one which building costs 150 minerals (his) and one which building costs 200 minerals (mine) and we are not forgetting that mine were upgraded with an upgrade that doesn't just cost 100 minerals, but 100 gas aswell.

I have also been playing A LOT of mediocre terrans recently and have started to notice the imbalances, firstly, What the hell is zerg's counter to a Thor? It's been racking my mind for quite a while, since it seems there is nothing I can do against Thors. At first I thought it was brutalisks, but they were utterly demolished. Brood lords were completely splattered. As was every other unit I tried.

According to my starcraft App on my phone it is either a zergling, or a brood lord. But neither, even when they far out number the thors, seem to do any damage.

Also what the hell is with the tech tree's?

Terran have a vs air and ground splash damage combat walker that requires 2 buildings and 1 add on (totalling at 350 minerals 125 vespene), + 300 minerals and 200 gas for the unit itself. Meaning 650 minerals and 325 gas to build one.

While Zerg's BEST(imo) unit, requires 4 upgrades, 3 buildings (totalling at 900 Minerals 600 gas) + 300 minerals and 250 gas for the unit itself.
Meaning 1200 Minerals 850 gas to build one.

This means the brood lord has DOUBLE the minerals and nearly TRIPLE the gas requirement of the Thor

Yet the cheaper, much quicker to get unit, doesn't just beat one of the really expensive brood lords in a fight, it beats 3 or 4? and if you send in it's other "weakness" it will also demolish them before they can reach it? WTF.

So yeah, I found out star craft is not balanced.

There is actually a lot more to this. Basically Zergs only counter to 60% of the things that Terrans usually do requires good micro and to have made it into the late game, which if you think about how strong Marines are, is pretty hard to do.


// Rant over.

I wasn't even having trouble with playing Terran until Mid Diamond league But suddenly players that I felt were worse then me, were wiping the floor with me with Terran. So I played a lot of practice games with my Terran friend. SC2 has more Balance issues than I first thought.

EDIT: Wait THERES MORE

I left out that Thors have a range of FREAKING 10

Have you ever seen the strategy of the Terrans alled TvT? That is where most of the "Terrans are overpowered" comes from. Tanks in siege, Vikings in fighter mode and Thors. Seriously if they get that going, nothing can stop it, and I have tried everything.

For example, the immediate reaction to tanks is air, but the vikings with a range of 9 against air, and the thors with a range of 10 keep air at a distance. You could try something like Dark Templars, but a simple scan from the Terran's Orbital Command and they are all dead. You can't macro your troops out if it because nothing out ranges siege tanks, and they use the Vikings to scout ahead and give the tanks vision.

Also, Think of the unit types, anti-air, Invisible-assasin type, Large combat walker, base unit, second unit.

Terran have the strongest of every standard unit type.

Vikings have the strongest anti-air in the game, as well as being able to transform and be pretty decent on the ground.

Ghosts have ranged attack so they win over dark templars, aswell as being able to snipe biological units and call down nuclear strikes.

Thors can't be hit by air only units, and can attack in the air, as well as having much longer range, better splash damage and better overall damage than the colossus, and Zerg don't even have one, unless you count the brutalisk, which has no ranged attack and as a result gets owned hard by anything that does.

As for base units, Marines just wipe the floor with zealots and zerglings. Big ship type thing

The ONLY exception, where Terran lose out, is the 2nd tier air/ground fighter, where the void ray wipes the floor with the wraith, but I've never seen a terran use a wraith, all they need is banshees and vikings to beat void rays. The mutalisk beats the wraith here, but void rays are ridiculously strong.

As for a Big ship type thing, again Zerg don't have one, but a 3/3 battle cruiser will beat a 3/3 carrier, but in my experience, a lot of carriers beats a lot of battle cruisers, unless they have yamato, in which case, your screwed. It's pretty even, but terran wouldn't fight them with battle cruisers, they would just send in 3/3 vikings, which I have seen completely decimate some carriers before.

Magician, For this, I would say Zerg win hard. Infestors are far better than ghosts or High templars, however, a lot of protoss players complain that EMP wipes the floor with high templars, and the ghost is not terrans only magician type unit. they also have access to Ravens.

EDIT #2

I shall link you here for more zerg complaints from some korean pros.
This time more focused on toss.

http://us.battle.net...topic/375111759

I actually did just have an idea for a really good zerg strategy though. I'll let you know how it goes.

You reallly really really have to freaking learn how to counter units. The strength of terrans comes from the "ball". Zerlings 2v1 (Since you get 2 per egg) will beat a marine. But when you face 100 vs 50. While only x number of zerglings can attack at once. ALL MARINES CAN ATTACK. Of course they will destroy your shit. Just send in a few roaches or mutas. They rape marine face. Same thing with brood lords and infestors. Learn how each unit attacks, and counter it. Marines are ranged with very light damage. Armour units/ranged units destroy it. Marines in a group are better then zerglings 100% of the time. This was true in brood war. Its true in starcraft 2. I can show you a thousand videos of Flash raping zerglings with his marine build. And I can show you a thousand videos of zerg raping marines with zerlings. Its about how you use the units. DONT DO THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJldRewbrMo

Of course sending in your units to just mindlessly bash against marines 5 at a time will get your face crushed in. The more zerglings actually attacking. The more damage you do. Just because SC2 lets you use 200 units as a group, doesnt mean its a good ideal. Hotkey them into separate groups. Flank, and rape face.



The thor is only good if its protected. 1 thor vs 10 zerglings. The thor will lose. Lets see a supply capped zergling (400) vs a supply capped thor (32)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND1BBz6Uy70

Now lets watch 32 collosi vs 32 thors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUSzxy63SgI

Now lets watch mutalisk take out a thor + marines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSUf6Tz6XMY


It really is all about how you play the game. This isnt just were you build a stronger unit and you win. This game is about strategy 100% of the way through. Its about being in the right place, at the right now, and decimating the other persons army in the right way. I've seen fights go every different way. I've seen 2 marines take down 20 zerglings. I've seen 5 zerglings take down 10 marines. Its about when and how you attack.

I honestly suggest that you watch these games.

http://www.youtube.c.../HuskyStarcraft

Its how I got started in starcraft (He removed his broodwar feed ). He does epic commentaries on high ELO games. You will learn the good builds, and the bad builds.

And. For a little light reading. Look here.

http://wiki.teamliqu...raft2/Main_Page

You will learn things you never ever ever though existed.

[Volition]

OH MY FREAKING GOD.

I am so raged right now because I just found out how overpowered terran is.

I had like 60 cracklings, which is 30 x 50 minerals. 1500 for those of you slow at math.
He had about 25 marines with no upgrades, 25 x 50 minerals, 1250 minerals for those of you slow at math.

His marines devoured my cracklings with 2 marines lost.. He then proceeded to take out my base defences which were 3 spine crawlers, which fell in about 2 seconds each. doing no damage to the marines.

How is it that our base units are so different in strength, one which building costs 150 minerals (his) and one which building costs 200 minerals (mine) and we are not forgetting that mine were upgraded with an upgrade that doesn't just cost 100 minerals, but 100 gas aswell.

I have also been playing A LOT of mediocre terrans recently and have started to notice the imbalances, firstly, What the hell is zerg's counter to a Thor? It's been racking my mind for quite a while, since it seems there is nothing I can do against Thors. At first I thought it was brutalisks, but they were utterly demolished. Brood lords were completely splattered. As was every other unit I tried.

According to my starcraft App on my phone it is either a zergling, or a brood lord. But neither, even when they far out number the thors, seem to do any damage.

Also what the hell is with the tech tree's?

Terran have a vs air and ground splash damage combat walker that requires 2 buildings and 1 add on (totalling at 350 minerals 125 vespene), + 300 minerals and 200 gas for the unit itself. Meaning 650 minerals and 325 gas to build one.

While Zerg's BEST(imo) unit, requires 4 upgrades, 3 buildings (totalling at 900 Minerals 600 gas) + 300 minerals and 250 gas for the unit itself.
Meaning 1200 Minerals 850 gas to build one.

This means the brood lord has DOUBLE the minerals and nearly TRIPLE the gas requirement of the Thor

Yet the cheaper, much quicker to get unit, doesn't just beat one of the really expensive brood lords in a fight, it beats 3 or 4? and if you send in it's other "weakness" it will also demolish them before they can reach it? WTF.

So yeah, I found out star craft is not balanced.

There is actually a lot more to this. Basically Zergs only counter to 60% of the things that Terrans usually do requires good micro and to have made it into the late game, which if you think about how strong Marines are, is pretty hard to do.


// Rant over.

I wasn't even having trouble with playing Terran until Mid Diamond league But suddenly players that I felt were worse then me, were wiping the floor with me with Terran. So I played a lot of practice games with my Terran friend. SC2 has more Balance issues than I first thought.

EDIT: Wait THERES MORE

I left out that Thors have a range of FREAKING 10

Have you ever seen the strategy of the Terrans alled TvT? That is where most of the "Terrans are overpowered" comes from. Tanks in siege, Vikings in fighter mode and Thors. Seriously if they get that going, nothing can stop it, and I have tried everything.

For example, the immediate reaction to tanks is air, but the vikings with a range of 9 against air, and the thors with a range of 10 keep air at a distance. You could try something like Dark Templars, but a simple scan from the Terran's Orbital Command and they are all dead. You can't macro your troops out if it because nothing out ranges siege tanks, and they use the Vikings to scout ahead and give the tanks vision.

Also, Think of the unit types, anti-air, Invisible-assasin type, Large combat walker, base unit, second unit.

Terran have the strongest of every standard unit type.

Vikings have the strongest anti-air in the game, as well as being able to transform and be pretty decent on the ground.

Ghosts have ranged attack so they win over dark templars, aswell as being able to snipe biological units and call down nuclear strikes.

Thors can't be hit by air only units, and can attack in the air, as well as having much longer range, better splash damage and better overall damage than the colossus, and Zerg don't even have one, unless you count the brutalisk, which has no ranged attack and as a result gets owned hard by anything that does.

As for base units, Marines just wipe the floor with zealots and zerglings. Big ship type thing

The ONLY exception, where Terran lose out, is the 2nd tier air/ground fighter, where the void ray wipes the floor with the wraith, but I've never seen a terran use a wraith, all they need is banshees and vikings to beat void rays. The mutalisk beats the wraith here, but void rays are ridiculously strong.

As for a Big ship type thing, again Zerg don't have one, but a 3/3 battle cruiser will beat a 3/3 carrier, but in my experience, a lot of carriers beats a lot of battle cruisers, unless they have yamato, in which case, your screwed. It's pretty even, but terran wouldn't fight them with battle cruisers, they would just send in 3/3 vikings, which I have seen completely decimate some carriers before.

Magician, For this, I would say Zerg win hard. Infestors are far better than ghosts or High templars, however, a lot of protoss players complain that EMP wipes the floor with high templars, and the ghost is not terrans only magician type unit. they also have access to Ravens.

EDIT #2

I shall link you here for more zerg complaints from some korean pros.
This time more focused on toss.

http://us.battle.net...topic/375111759

I actually did just have an idea for a really good zerg strategy though. I'll let you know how it goes.

uhhh no, bc's raped carriers in bwar and it does the same in sc2. as for tanks...zlot bombs?

[Metigue]

You reallly really really have to freaking learn how to counter units. The strength of terrans comes from the "ball". Zerlings 2v1 (Since you get 2 per egg) will beat a marine. But when you face 100 vs 50. While only x number of zerglings can attack at once. ALL MARINES CAN ATTACK. Of course they will destroy your shit. Just send in a few roaches or mutas. They rape marine face. Same thing with brood lords and infestors. Learn how each unit attacks, and counter it. Marines are ranged with very light damage. Armour units/ranged units destroy it. Marines in a group are better then zerglings 100% of the time. This was true in brood war. Its true in starcraft 2. I can show you a thousand videos of Flash raping zerglings with his marine build. And I can show you a thousand videos of zerg raping marines with zerlings. Its about how you use the units. DONT DO THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJldRewbrMo

Of course sending in your units to just mindlessly bash against marines 5 at a time will get your face crushed in. The more zerglings actually attacking. The more damage you do. Just because SC2 lets you use 200 units as a group, doesnt mean its a good ideal. Hotkey them into separate groups. Flank, and rape face.



The thor is only good if its protected. 1 thor vs 10 zerglings. The thor will lose. Lets see a supply capped zergling (400) vs a supply capped thor (32)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND1BBz6Uy70

Now lets watch 32 collosi vs 32 thors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUSzxy63SgI

Now lets watch mutalisk take out a thor + marines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSUf6Tz6XMY


It really is all about how you play the game. This isnt just were you build a stronger unit and you win. This game is about strategy 100% of the way through. Its about being in the right place, at the right now, and decimating the other persons army in the right way. I've seen fights go every different way. I've seen 2 marines take down 20 zerglings. I've seen 5 zerglings take down 10 marines. Its about when and how you attack.

I honestly suggest that you watch these games.

http://www.youtube.c.../HuskyStarcraft

Its how I got started in starcraft (He removed his broodwar feed ). He does epic commentaries on high ELO games. You will learn the good builds, and the bad builds.

And. For a little light reading. Look here.

http://wiki.teamliqu...raft2/Main_Page

You will learn things you never ever ever though existed.

I've read the team liquid wiki before. and I've also watched a lot of HuskyStarcraft's stuff before.
Criticisms for those videos include, that the thor were bottlenecked for there number against the colossi in round 1 (Not a wide enough area for the ammount of thors) while the collossi were allowed to spread out. And for round 2, some of the colossi are on high ground, also why did we only see range upgrade vs standard and then ability? I was talking about just standard colossi vs thor.

Also the zerglings ran up against a ball of marines half through a line of site blocker.. this means the terran player could see all of the lings, but the zerg could only see the marines through currently.

I haven't watched the last one yet.
Edit: I watched the last one, He has 6 mutas = 600 minerals and 600 gas
while the terran had 1 thor and 6 marines = 600 minerals and 200 gas
Yet the zerg still had to use strategy to turn the battle in his advantage, even though he had 400 gas of excess troops on the field.
Is that balance?



Your forgetting I'm mid diamond league... I was microing my lings like hell and had the surround, but the marines still had a higher DPS than me. They were attacking me, not the other way around. And I wouldn't use Mutas or Roaches against marines, because stimpack eats them up. I would go for BL + Infestor as you said, but, they come way to late game. Besides, almost every terran I am facing now is going TvT, which I have never been able to beat in my life, and until I can think of a suitable counter for it, I will carry on losing.

I keep getting knocked down to bottom of diamond league, where there are worse terrans, winning back up to mid diamond, and losing to damn TvT

It's funny you should say that, because I sent in 16 cracklings against one thor, again got the surround, and the thor just took the damage while killing off the zerglings then marched up the ramp into my base.

I agree that the game is 100% about strategy, but I am saying that terran have the ability to make certain combinations that cannot be countered with any strategy, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, here is the key part. The thing I am getting at is that Terran have the ability to spend far less money and get a superior force then the other races.

With TvT, if it was Brood war. I would just move a burrowed infestor near there tanks, spawn an infested marine in the middle and watch them blow each other up, but because of the AI's smart aim, they wont do that. Ofcourse I could spawn many marines with multiple infestors, but they would all die before they were hatched, A little scan from there orbital command and my infestors would die as well.

Another combination that zerg has no real counter to is banshees and vikings, the only way I've fended this off was with a crapload of Hydralisks, and I took heavy losses.

Macro is not my problem Argue.

And I didn't think Terran were overpowered until I hit mid diamond league. Because all of the players there abuse the overpowered parts of terran.

Anyway, what happened? I thought you didn't like SC2?




EDIT:

Today I was playing 1v1 Random. I have had a distinct increase in my win rate since changing from Zerg.

I have won 13 games, and lost 3.

I have not lost a game as Terran so far, (1-1-1 Build, or as Husky likes to call it, Destiny cloudfist.
I have lost 1 game as Protoss, as protoss I like to scout my opponent, block off there gas, and depending on what they are doing react with my build (I do a variation of this with all races, but usually I'll have a standard opener, with toss I don't), Or I'll be lazy and just do 4gate.
and 2 as Zerg. (8 pool double hatch early expand)

I've gotten Terran 6 times, Protoss 5 times and Zerg 5 times

Edited by Metigue, 20 August 2010 - 01:49 AM.

[Vegas]

lol didn't I say terran was overpowered especially on tvz?

if you do the gas cap as toss, how far back does that set u economically and what do you do after? straight stalker pump?

i love harassing terrans and trying to destroy their scv while structure building.

[Metigue]

I got the idea of gas starving the opponent when watching TLO vs Madfrog

every time Madfrog scouted him, TLO would quickly build his refineries, because being gas starved as a terran sets you back so hard.

It's highly reccomended as a toss because it delays marauders by so so much, which allows any push with gateways to be much more effective.

And it doesn't set you back much, 150 minerals if you fully go through with it, on both refineries, but you can always cancel for very little cost.

Anyway, I'm winning a lot more now, and Terran has become my best race Haha.

Did anyone see NaDa vs TLO at IEM? TLO won the first match quite easily, The second match NaDa overpowered TLO with some insane Macro. and the third match.. this part is important so I'm bolding it.

Kespa forced NaDa to quit because someone was streaming the match in Korea

After the game we find out that NaDa had only played starcraft for 10 days prior to the match up, and still beat one of the best Terrans that has played starcraft 2 since the beginning of beta.

I'm really excited for DSG

Oh and IEM Semi's are on in 40 minutes.

Two Terran vs Zerg should be interesting.

Free stream: http://tv.esl.eu/de/

Morrow Vs Dimaga

and

Idra Vs Tarson

Edit: On now

Edit 2: Morrow has beaten Dimaga.

Morrow's after game quote: "I think reapers are a little bit imbalanced"

Edited by Metigue, 21 August 2010 - 06:54 AM.

[Xcisor]

never played any of the actual 'craft' games but I did play World Of warcarft for sometime. My friends have all suggest I look into star craft though.

[Vegas]

I got the idea of gas starving the opponent when watching TLO vs Madfrog

every time Madfrog scouted him, TLO would quickly build his refineries, because being gas starved as a terran sets you back so hard.

It's highly reccomended as a toss because it delays marauders by so so much, which allows any push with gateways to be much more effective.

And it doesn't set you back much, 150 minerals if you fully go through with it, on both refineries, but you can always cancel for very little cost.

Anyway, I'm winning a lot more now, and Terran has become my best race Haha.

What's your general terran strat in matchups?
tvt,tvp,tvz


im guessing you have to delay gate for the gas cap since alot of terrans will build gas at the latest at 13 supply?